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Some of the notes got me wondering. Each tile in the game is made up of multiple layers, defined in the scang.dat file. Put these layers together, and you get a primitive 3D object, which the game uses to calculate line of sight, as well as whether a bullet hit or not.
Anyone who has it - can we get listings of values for various aliens on the Unitref page, for some of the variables found in both Unitref and the Geoscape [[Talk:Overviews_of_Aliens|Alien stats]]? E.g. energy recharge (Unitref[35]), energy loss [45]... like what Danial did for Height. Some of it might go to NKF's redesigned [[Soldiers (UFO Defense)|Soldier]] page. I am trying to flesh out the Geoscape data so I know what everything is there (and can then extend it across difficulty levels). It has unlabelled fields with values, some of which I know must be these values... but there's no list for me to compare against. Thanks if you can help! ---[[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 19:37, 25 Nov 2005 (PST)


I wonder if units have their own 3D models.
P.S. We probably should clean up this Discussion some time. I will if I find the time to make sure everything has made its way to wherever it should go.
 
You see, a unit which has a low height stat, bullets will go over its' head. But, the Celatid has a very low height stat. So, perhaps there is a 3D model at work defining whether the bullet hits or not?
 
Another possibilty is that each unit has more stats for dimensions then simply height. For example, a stat which says how far above the ground it is.
 
Mike, concerning the bitflags you added from the 'many aliens' save file... Um, those aliens would have been all the same type before Hobbes edited the file... So I'm not sure the stats fully apply to the aliens as they are now...
 
- Bomb Bloke
 
--------------------------------------------
 
BB, I'm pretty new to Unitref, and haven't used XCOMUTIL either. In fact, doing this is part of me learning about Unitref. If you think Hobbes info doesn't apply, go ahead and pull it. (Or if unsure, stick in a note to that effect?)
 
I have to rely on you pros' opinions here. I've made a backup copy of the Editing version of the page, so they can be retrieved if necessary. In any case, I'll point out where I got info from, in case it might apply to other things, too.
 
'' '''Edit:''' Ok, now that I've gotten farther through Hobbes' data relative to Unitref, it seems clear that there is garbage in some fields, like the Kill, Mission, and Experience ones. Which makes the other ones at least somewhat suspect. If not a lot suspect. But it's getting real late here... I'm hitting the sack. Will work on it more, comparing against homegrown combats and/or pulling some of what I put in from his savegame. Anyone else feel free to do the same.
 
Good to see you! That's a helluva lotta work you and NKF did. I wrote some VBA that pulls Unitref into a db. Makes it real easy to look at values, including across different Unitrefs. I may or may not be taking a much longer look at Unitref... not totally sure what I'll work on next with XCOM, atm. Besides finishing some more Unitref notes. Hope we don't collide when editing that page!!
 
Talking of 3D, did you see [[User_talk:Danial]]'s stuff? Not 3D per se, but anyway...
 
- Mike
 
--------------------------------------------
 
I've realised that I spoke too soon. There's a good chance that Hobbes would have correctly implemented the extra aliens in the save file (in fact, the correct way is just about the easiest), so I reckon those stats would be ok. Only he'd know, of course.
 
Concerning the 'rubbish' data you found, that's naturally occuring in all save files. Any byte which is 'unused' (for example, the extra bytes in the name string) is subject to random bits of data. Aliens don't use those counters, you see. You might have noticed the post NKF made on the Xenocide boards about how chunks of his Windows registry got embedded in his save files.
 
- Bomb Bloke
-----
If the ''Mission'' and ''Kill Counts'' are both two bytes long in [[SOLDIER.DAT]], shouldn't it stand to reason that they both are in unitref? --[[User:Danial|Danial]] 19:19, 12 Oct 2005 (PDT)


----
----
Is it possible that '''unitref[48]''' is width? It is grouped with height and kneeling height, so it would make sense. --[[User:Danial|Danial]] 19:19, 12 Oct 2005 (PDT)


----
I've chopped out the majority of this page as it is no longer required. I'm keeping the heights chart in case it is required - I've also changed the "H-F" field to "H+F", as this actually makes sense.
I've checked all of my Snakeman missions and they definately have both [49] and [50] values of 18. Hobbes uses XCOMUTIL, right? Perhaps this changes some values? --[[User:Danial|Danial]] 19:19, 12 Oct 2005 (PDT)
                [49] [51] "Tall" [48]  | [49] [48]  
  Class        Ht.  Flt  H+F  Wide  |  Ht. Wide Area
  ---------    ---  ---  ----  ----  |  --- ---- ----
  Sectoid      16    0    16    2    |  16  2  32    Area=Ht.*Wide
  Celatid      12    6    18    3    |  12  3  36
  Hovertank*    12    6    18    4    |   12   4  48   
  Silacoid      10    0    10    5    |  10  5  50
  Snakeman      18    0    18    3    |  18  3  54
  Zombie        18    0    18    3    |  18  3  54
  Cyberdisc    15    2    17    4    |  15  4  60
  Ethereal      20    0    20    3    |  20  3  60    ''All Hover/Tanks in their
  Chryssalid    21    0    21    3    |  21  3  63    ''class assumed to be same
  Civilian      21    2    23    3    |  21  3  63    ''altho not tested yet
  Floater      21    2    23    3    |  21  3  63
  Muton        21    0    21    3    |  21  3  63
  Tank*        16    0    16    4    |  16  4  64
  Soldier      22    0    22    3    |  22  3  66
  Reaper        23    0    23    4    |  23  4  92
  Sectopod      23    0    23    4    |  23  4  92


----
Anyway, unitref[48] and unitref[52] remain somewhat of a mystery. Thus far we've assumed them to be the unit's width. Today I tried tinkering with [48] to see of this was correct. As I cranked it up, I found no change in my accuracy, or as to how the Sectoid target blocked line of fire to the tiles behind it.


Right, I just checked Missions and Kills by hacking value in geoscape SOLDIER to > 255, then went on a mission ... the hacked values were reflected as a two-byte value in Unitref in expected places, and then made it back to geoscape after mission end, with increased values due to mission. They ARE signed FWIW, because you actually get a negative mission or kill count in soldier stat display screen, if highest (16th) bit is set. (Is there any way to see them in the game, in combat?) I doubt the programmers 'meant' anything by them being signed; they just grabbed a two-byte data type... who's ever gonna get anywhere near that high? I'll edit the wiki DATs... hey, my .HSL isn't signed for those integers, hehe!
When it reached the value of 37, however, the alien disappeared! I could not view it regardless of distance. In fact, I could even fire right through the tile it was standing on with no obstruction. The only sign that the alien was still there was the fact that my unit could not stand on the same square.


That works for me, U[48] being width... makes a lot of sense, looking at the data. '''Good call!''' Maybe it makes the "bullet trajectory" more certain to hit wide things? (If it's down low enough??) XCOM doesn't actually do any 3D surface modelling or whatever to check that bullets hit, does it? If not, "width" isn't a bad approximation for "can't miss that big fat thing". If true, it could be yet another 'hidden' stat for the wiki, like you did with [[Height]]. Notice how [52] seems to be exactly the same as [48]... that's a head scratcher. Maybe they were in Weight Watchers and really concerned about their waist size?? j/k
I lowered [48] a bit and tried viewing the alien from different distances, and found that it appeared in the same way as it usually would, regardless of the value used. It's simply the case that going to 37 or above makes the alien invisible.


Okeydoke on the Snakeman height. Let me (or somebody else) check it in a "natural" game before we worry about it. May take me a little while. FWIW I've dropped Hobbes an email asking if he can comment re: what BB said, but I don't know if he'll answer, shrug. I mentioned the garbage in some of the fields to BB because I hope none of the other stuff I saw and posted into the wiki is garbage... really hard to tell with bitfields whose purpose is unknown. I will rely on whatever you pros here think, in regard to whether the bit values from his game should be pulled from the wiki. We could always "archive" (i.e. paste) the whole current wiki page (with Hobbes stuff) to an "archive page" that we just reference under a "See Also" link and pull it from the main page. So that it's still around if we ever realize we want it back. Whatever you pros think; I'm a newbie to Unitref for now.
I also tweaked [52] a bit, but found that it seemed to have no similar effects, if any at all.


How do the folks working on Unitref like the format I put the bitfields in? Makes it easier to read, don't you think?
Although I haven't tested this any further as yet, it might be possible to use this effect in reverse - Create an 'invisible' X-Com unit, and use it to observe how aliens act when they think we're not looking.


--[[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 20:57, 12 Oct 2005 (PDT)
- [[User:Bomb Bloke|Bomb Bloke]] 00:44, 31 July 2006 (PDT)
 
----
 
I wonder, will height values of 0 have any effect on your bullets?
 
I'm also wondering if it's just an offset to tell the game where the unit's bullet should appear from. Probably not, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
 
- [[User:NKF|NKF]]
 
----
 
Danial, it just occurred to me that Soldier Value is based on a two-byte field, and it's two bytes in SOLDIER... but it's only one byte in Unitref. Go figure.
 
Sounds interesting, NKF. For that matter, Danial's possible "width" field could be tried, too. Maybe "width" is just modeled as e.g. a cylinder (square?) out from center of tile... so it's easy to miss sectoids if you only clip the edge of a tile, but not a tank. But then... does the game use [48] or [52] or both for "width"?
 
--[[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 23:22, 12 Oct 2005 (PDT)
 
----------------------------------
 
I already knew there was a two byte kill count variable (thanks to NKF), but the mission count was news to me. w00t! Two more bytes accounted for! Only 31 to go! :D
 
I'll mess around with the height stats when I get a chance, do some tests. If there really is a 'float' stat (how far a unit is above the ground), then we've found something really new! Let alone width! Oooh, so tempting!... But I have to go back to work now. :(
 
- Bomb Bloke
 
----
Perhaps the first value is width and the second value is depth or something? They might have been planning to have non-square units at some point.
 
BB, if there is a 'float' height value, then wouldn't the Celatid be the only one with a value other than 0?
 
- Danial
 
-------------------
 
Hovertanks and floaters 'fly' too. Etherals might also fly. And I wouldn't put it past the developers to make other aliens 'fly' simply to make them harder targets.
 
It's just a theory at this stage.
 
- Bomb Bloke
 
----
 
''If'' we have Height [49] AND "Float" [51], then their "real" height (in terms of profile you can hit) might be Height-Float. Combined with this potential Width ([48] and/or [52]) defines a cross-sectional target area a.k.a. percent of the space of a tile that they occupy, seen from the 'side'. If it does work this way, it's '''Area1''' here:
                [49] [51] "Tall" [48]        | [49] [48]   
  Class        Ht.  Flt  H-F  Wide '''Area1'''  |  Ht. Wide '''Area2'''    Area1=(Ht.-Flt.)*Wide
  ---------    ---  ---  ----  ---- -----  |  --- ---- -----
  Sectoid      16    0    16    2    32    |  16  2    32    Area2=Ht.*Wide
  Celatid      12    6    6    3    18    |  12  3    36
  Hovertank*    12    6    6    4    24    |  12  4    48    ''Sorted on Area2
  Silacoid      10    0    10    5    50    |  10  5    50
  Snakeman      18    0    18    3    54    |  18  3    54
  Zombie        18    0    18    3    54    |  18  3    54
  Cyberdisc    15    2    13    4    52    |  15  4    60
  Ethereal      20    0    20    3    60    |  20  3    60    ''All Hover/Tanks in their
  Chryssalid    21    0    21    3    63    |  21  3    63    ''class assumed to be same
  Civilian      21    2    19    3    57    |  21  3    63    ''altho not tested yet
  Floater      21    2    19    3    57    |  21  3    63
  Muton        21    0    21    3    63    |  21  3    63
  Tank*        16    0    16    4    64    |   16  4    64
  Soldier      22    0    22    3    66    |  22  3    66
  Reaper        23    0    23    4    92    |  23  4    92
  Sectopod      23    0    23    4    92    |  23  4    92
With Area1, Hovertanks would be thin as a pancake!! So instead I tried simply Height x Width, shown in Area2. Much better. IOW, if a full tile is 24 "high", as Danial estimated, the Celatid starts at 6 and goes to 18 (6+12). Also note that with Area2, Civvies and Floaters add up to 23, the highest value seen for others. (And Dan - if counting starts at 0, you were right on the money with the 24!! Then again maybe they avoid 24 just to steer clear of ceiling collisions. Anyway.)
 
This whole concept could be roughly tested with some shooting... but it'd need a lot of repetitious work. I recommend very good accuracy (hacked soldier, best weapon; simply reduces # tests needed), fair distance so anything that's calc'd to miss really will, and then use ammo counts vs. experience counter to get percent hits entirely accurately. Choose some of the targets with extreme values (width, "float", area). Then kill them a TON of times, lol. Unfortunately, you can only use Exp. Ctr. for un-MC'd aliens, so no testing of tanks. I wonder what Cyberdisc's numbers are? But they can't be disarmed, wah. Actually anything Large shouldn't be used because you may hit other quarters, which would mess with comparing percents. Possibly even if you just compared large to large.
 
Another unanswered question is, if [48] and/or [52] is "width", HOW is it width? A scaler for "percent chance of hit", max 5, so Sectoid is 40%? Or they could've used cylindrical or square (actually cubic) percent-chance lookup tables or even actual "3D" models. (With such a simple geometry, it's conceivably do-able for them.) Hey - I wonder whether there are similar values for the scenery (trees etc.)... they get hit too... wth would these values look like for them, if so?
 
Hold the phone... great point, NKF ... hacking some or all of these four bytes to 0 (or something real high!) may tell us tons within a few shots. Or maybe even just by looking at'em! I personally am not interested in this ATM so if BB or somebody else wants to test, go for it. (Don't forget, [52] and [48] seem to be identical, so one might be unused.)
 
We could really use a (hacked/XCOMUTIL?) save game with ALL the different aliens, tanks, and soldiers vs. 4 armor types. Zombies too, wth. I count 22 types total. Multiples of each, to bring out "personal" vs. "class" bytes and bits. Disarmed if possible, so they don't kill all civs and soldiers by turn 2, laugh. Can't 80 units fit into a combat? if somebody makes this, pls. avoid the potential problem BB talked about re: Hobbes game (whatever it was!). Would this take forever or can anyone do this for us? Post as another Unitref [[UNITREF.DAT#Notes|Note]], if you make one. I personally WOULD be interested in pulling data from this and posting it, like I did for Hobbes... I just got Unitref to where I can suck it in automatedly and query it; that's how I pulled his stuff so fast. And/or send me other savegames you'd like me to pull stats from! I like to play with data. (But don't necessarily like the endless repetition of in-game testing to get it!)
 
Anybody let me know if they want me to write a little applet where e.g. you press a button and it shows you the Experience Counters (or anything else) for a savegame. It wouldn't keep it locked. Thus you could move faster with e.g. shooting tests. I *think* I can do this in VBA and package it so you don't need MS Access... haven't tried before... so you may need Access. Anyway let me know if anyone's interested and I'll look into it.
 
Speaking of which, can somebody sooner or later post something re: the structure of the other XCOM savegame files? Currently I'm esp. interested in being able to hack weapons etc. into an existing game. But have no idea where/how that's stored.
 
Ethereals can fly... MC one and you'll see, although I can't recall seeing them fly of their own will. BUT they do have a 0 in [51].
 
- [[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]]
 
''Ooooops! Accidentally pasted over all old notes - forgot this wasn't sectioned - just put old notes back - ignore the weirdness in History!
 
----------------
 
Interesting note for the day: the position of the yellow arrow denoting the selected unit is affected by the units' height. Thus far, using this stat alone has placed the arrow in the correct place (in my mapviewer) for most units, but not celatids and other flyers - the arrow ends up to low.
 
This, to me, means that the unit's height statistic is absolute, and to find where the top of a unit is relative to the ground, you use height + float (as opposed to just height).
 
Edit: Yup, using offset[51] as 'float' places the yellow arrow perfectly for all units! It's official, each unit has a 'distance from the ground' stat!
 
This means the Civilians float above the ground. I double checked. Clearly they are high on illegal substances or something.
 
By the way, I've taken the liberty of tweaking your table, Mike. I'm still not convinced offset[52] is width, even if it is specific to unit type... But certainly well worth recording all possible values.
 
- Bomb Bloke
 
----
First of all, it was ''my'' table :P<br>
<br>
And second, why would they have given civilians a Hover value? What purpose could that possibly serve?
 
- Danial
 
----------------
 
I find myself signing your comments for you, but I can't catch all of them! Don't blame me if the only name at the bottom of your chart is Mikes! ;)
 
Only possibilities as to why civilians hover are:
 
*"No one will ever know."
*"Might as well give the poor sods some chance."
*"Hey, did you remember to remove that typo in the civilian stats?"    "Ooops..."
 
I'm tempted to prove the point by constructing a save game with some very short soldiers and a civilian in between them, to show that you can shoot through the gap. But I get bored playing around with hex editors.
 
- Bomb Bloke
 
----
 
Eh, the reason the table wasn't signed by him, was because I casually ripped it from his [[height]] page and then signed it with my own name, lol. The width concept is his, too.
 
BB and NKF - thanks SO much for putting info on other savegame files out there! Now I can edit stuff into soldier's hands once I have a good test set up... Looks like [[OBPOS.DAT|Obpos]][0] references into [[UNITPOS.DAT|Unitpos]] order... and e.g. 2nd unit in Unitpos will be same as 2nd unit in Unitref? Time to dust off some bits and bytes (rubs hands together)...
 
As for why civilians float, I figure they're so panicked that their legs are flying, as it were... seems consistent with their insane antics, lol
 
- MikeTheRed
 
------
 
Obpos records that refer to items held by units, will list those units via their unitpos record numbers.
 
Because a unit has up to four records in unitpos, and only ever one record in unitref, the second UNIT in unitref is the same second UNIT in unitref, but that doesn't mean that the RECORDS are the same... Dunno how much sense that makes...
 
- Bomb Bloke
 
----
 
Anyone who has it - can we get listings of values for various aliens on the Unitref page, for some of the variables found in both Unitref and the Geoscape [[Talk:Overviews_of_Aliens|Alien stats]]? E.g. energy recharge (Unitref[35]), energy loss [45]... like what Danial did for Height. Some of it might go to NKF's redesigned [[Soldiers (UFO Defense)|Soldier]] page. I am trying to flesh out the Geoscape data so I know what everything is there (and can then extend it across difficulty levels). It has unlabelled fields with values, some of which I know must be these values... but there's no list for me to compare against. Thanks if you can help! ---[[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 19:37, 25 Nov 2005 (PST)  
 
P.S. We probably should clean up this Discussion some time. I will if I find the time to make sure everything has made its way to wherever it should go.

Revision as of 07:44, 31 July 2006

Anyone who has it - can we get listings of values for various aliens on the Unitref page, for some of the variables found in both Unitref and the Geoscape Alien stats? E.g. energy recharge (Unitref[35]), energy loss [45]... like what Danial did for Height. Some of it might go to NKF's redesigned Soldier page. I am trying to flesh out the Geoscape data so I know what everything is there (and can then extend it across difficulty levels). It has unlabelled fields with values, some of which I know must be these values... but there's no list for me to compare against. Thanks if you can help! ---MikeTheRed 19:37, 25 Nov 2005 (PST)

P.S. We probably should clean up this Discussion some time. I will if I find the time to make sure everything has made its way to wherever it should go.

I've chopped out the majority of this page as it is no longer required. I'm keeping the heights chart in case it is required - I've also changed the "H-F" field to "H+F", as this actually makes sense. 

               [49] [51] "Tall" [48]  | [49] [48]    
  Class         Ht.  Flt   H+F  Wide  |  Ht. Wide Area
  ---------     ---  ---  ----  ----  |  --- ---- ----
  Sectoid       16    0    16    2    |   16   2   32     Area=Ht.*Wide
  Celatid       12    6    18    3    |   12   3   36
  Hovertank*    12    6    18    4    |   12   4   48     
  Silacoid      10    0    10    5    |   10   5   50 
  Snakeman      18    0    18    3    |   18   3   54 
  Zombie        18    0    18    3    |   18   3   54
  Cyberdisc     15    2    17    4    |   15   4   60
  Ethereal      20    0    20    3    |   20   3   60    All Hover/Tanks in their
  Chryssalid    21    0    21    3    |   21   3   63    class assumed to be same
  Civilian      21    2    23    3    |   21   3   63    altho not tested yet
  Floater       21    2    23    3    |   21   3   63
  Muton         21    0    21    3    |   21   3   63
  Tank*         16    0    16    4    |   16   4   64
  Soldier       22    0    22    3    |   22   3   66
  Reaper        23    0    23    4    |   23   4   92
  Sectopod      23    0    23    4    |   23   4   92

Anyway, unitref[48] and unitref[52] remain somewhat of a mystery. Thus far we've assumed them to be the unit's width. Today I tried tinkering with [48] to see of this was correct. As I cranked it up, I found no change in my accuracy, or as to how the Sectoid target blocked line of fire to the tiles behind it.

When it reached the value of 37, however, the alien disappeared! I could not view it regardless of distance. In fact, I could even fire right through the tile it was standing on with no obstruction. The only sign that the alien was still there was the fact that my unit could not stand on the same square.

I lowered [48] a bit and tried viewing the alien from different distances, and found that it appeared in the same way as it usually would, regardless of the value used. It's simply the case that going to 37 or above makes the alien invisible.

I also tweaked [52] a bit, but found that it seemed to have no similar effects, if any at all.

Although I haven't tested this any further as yet, it might be possible to use this effect in reverse - Create an 'invisible' X-Com unit, and use it to observe how aliens act when they think we're not looking.

- Bomb Bloke 00:44, 31 July 2006 (PDT)

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