Talk:Submersible Weapons Systems - Revision history

NKF: /* Are SWS worth it in TFTD? */

2011-05-08T21:53:05Z

Are SWS worth it in TFTD?

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:53, 8 May 2011
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	: Isn't buffing the SWS with XComUtil cheating? I mean, Coelacanth are already pretty strong in the beginning of the game, why do they get a massive buff? You might as well make Dart Pistols have infinite ammo, high accuracy, and do 200 damage... In the case of EU, I might see that an Xcom commander might insist on mounting the HWS Laser Cannon onto a flying chassis solely for it's ability to kill sectopods, but I don't see any reason for a Gauss, harpoon, or torpedo Displacer. [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 15:18, 8 May 2011 (EDT)		: Isn't buffing the SWS with XComUtil cheating? I mean, Coelacanth are already pretty strong in the beginning of the game, why do they get a massive buff? You might as well make Dart Pistols have infinite ammo, high accuracy, and do 200 damage... In the case of EU, I might see that an Xcom commander might insist on mounting the HWS Laser Cannon onto a flying chassis solely for it's ability to kill sectopods, but I don't see any reason for a Gauss, harpoon, or torpedo Displacer. [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 15:18, 8 May 2011 (EDT)

			:: Talking about the vanilla Coelacanths. They don't really need the buffing - just careful use. The basic Coelacanth chassis can withstand reasonably more damage than your guys at the start. While I wouldn't say they're good fighters, we were (for a while) getting more Gillman kills from the lone G. Cannon/Coelacanth than the individual aquanauts.

			:: By the way, there seems like there are enough argument for/against tanks to warrant an article in the analysis section. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 17:53, 8 May 2011 (EDT)

Jasonred: /* Are SWS worth it in TFTD? */

2011-05-08T19:19:59Z

Are SWS worth it in TFTD?

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:19, 8 May 2011
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	For the purpose of this discussion, can people clarify if they are using SWS buffed by XComUtil, or plain vanilla SWS. It makes a big difference as far as the weaker Coelecanth chassis is concerned. Nonetheless I tend to agree with Jasonred's arguments that the tougher aliens, tougher maps, lower aquanaut life expectancy and relatively tighter ammo carrying capacity improve the value of the TFTD SWS compared to the EU HWP. I tend to use them in TFTD and tend not to use them in EU. [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 14:16, 8 May 2011 (EDT)		For the purpose of this discussion, can people clarify if they are using SWS buffed by XComUtil, or plain vanilla SWS. It makes a big difference as far as the weaker Coelecanth chassis is concerned. Nonetheless I tend to agree with Jasonred's arguments that the tougher aliens, tougher maps, lower aquanaut life expectancy and relatively tighter ammo carrying capacity improve the value of the TFTD SWS compared to the EU HWP. I tend to use them in TFTD and tend not to use them in EU. [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 14:16, 8 May 2011 (EDT)

	: Isn't buffing the SWS with XComUtil cheating? I mean, ~~SWS~~ are already pretty strong, why do they get a massive buff? You might as well make Dart Pistols have infinite ammo, high accuracy, and do 200 damage... In the case of EU, I might see that an Xcom commander might insist on mounting the HWS Laser Cannon onto a flying chassis solely for it's ability to kill sectopods, but I don't see any reason for a Gauss, harpoon, or torpedo Displacer. [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 15:18, 8 May 2011 (EDT)		: Isn't buffing the SWS with XComUtil cheating? I mean, Coelacanth are already pretty strong in the beginning of the game, why do they get a massive buff? You might as well make Dart Pistols have infinite ammo, high accuracy, and do 200 damage... In the case of EU, I might see that an Xcom commander might insist on mounting the HWS Laser Cannon onto a flying chassis solely for it's ability to kill sectopods, but I don't see any reason for a Gauss, harpoon, or torpedo Displacer. [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 15:18, 8 May 2011 (EDT)

Jasonred: /* Are SWS worth it in TFTD? */

2011-05-08T19:18:13Z

Are SWS worth it in TFTD?

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:18, 8 May 2011
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	For the purpose of this discussion, can people clarify if they are using SWS buffed by XComUtil, or plain vanilla SWS. It makes a big difference as far as the weaker Coelecanth chassis is concerned. Nonetheless I tend to agree with Jasonred's arguments that the tougher aliens, tougher maps, lower aquanaut life expectancy and relatively tighter ammo carrying capacity improve the value of the TFTD SWS compared to the EU HWP. I tend to use them in TFTD and tend not to use them in EU. [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 14:16, 8 May 2011 (EDT)		For the purpose of this discussion, can people clarify if they are using SWS buffed by XComUtil, or plain vanilla SWS. It makes a big difference as far as the weaker Coelecanth chassis is concerned. Nonetheless I tend to agree with Jasonred's arguments that the tougher aliens, tougher maps, lower aquanaut life expectancy and relatively tighter ammo carrying capacity improve the value of the TFTD SWS compared to the EU HWP. I tend to use them in TFTD and tend not to use them in EU. [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 14:16, 8 May 2011 (EDT)

			: Isn't buffing the SWS with XComUtil cheating? I mean, SWS are already pretty strong, why do they get a massive buff? You might as well make Dart Pistols have infinite ammo, high accuracy, and do 200 damage... In the case of EU, I might see that an Xcom commander might insist on mounting the HWS Laser Cannon onto a flying chassis solely for it's ability to kill sectopods, but I don't see any reason for a Gauss, harpoon, or torpedo Displacer. [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 15:18, 8 May 2011 (EDT)

Spike: /* Are SWS worth it in TFTD? */

2011-05-08T18:16:33Z

Are SWS worth it in TFTD?

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:16, 8 May 2011
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	::: TFTD tanks can indeed fly on land, including base defense missions. Though pretty much the only areas where theres ''room'' to fly in your base would be the sub-pens. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 23:21, 6 May 2011 (EDT)		::: TFTD tanks can indeed fly on land, including base defense missions. Though pretty much the only areas where theres ''room'' to fly in your base would be the sub-pens. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 23:21, 6 May 2011 (EDT)

			For the purpose of this discussion, can people clarify if they are using SWS buffed by XComUtil, or plain vanilla SWS. It makes a big difference as far as the weaker Coelecanth chassis is concerned. Nonetheless I tend to agree with Jasonred's arguments that the tougher aliens, tougher maps, lower aquanaut life expectancy and relatively tighter ammo carrying capacity improve the value of the TFTD SWS compared to the EU HWP. I tend to use them in TFTD and tend not to use them in EU. [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 14:16, 8 May 2011 (EDT)

Bomb Bloke: /* Are SWS worth it in TFTD? */

2011-05-07T03:21:43Z

Are SWS worth it in TFTD?

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:21, 7 May 2011
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	:: I don't know how often rookies and tanks draw reaction fire. In fact, during my early playthroughs, I did not know that soldiers could shoot at stuff which they did not "acquire" and only shot at enemies with the flashing number on them. Ever since learning that you could snipe at enemies from far away, and that doing so meant that enemies could NOT reaction fire was a HUGE gamechanger for me. So, nowadays, I typically have the tanks as spotters and the troops just snipe at enemies from across the map. Oh yeah, it's weird how there's not much difference in accuracy between a target 20 tiles away and 30 tiles away... [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 23:05, 6 May 2011 (EDT)		:: I don't know how often rookies and tanks draw reaction fire. In fact, during my early playthroughs, I did not know that soldiers could shoot at stuff which they did not "acquire" and only shot at enemies with the flashing number on them. Ever since learning that you could snipe at enemies from far away, and that doing so meant that enemies could NOT reaction fire was a HUGE gamechanger for me. So, nowadays, I typically have the tanks as spotters and the troops just snipe at enemies from across the map. Oh yeah, it's weird how there's not much difference in accuracy between a target 20 tiles away and 30 tiles away... [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 23:05, 6 May 2011 (EDT)

			::: Multiplayer TFTD as in "[http://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/Aquatoid-Sushi-and-Lobsterburger-t8698.html pass the parcel]" with the save-game. Worth pointing out that I've played through my last three or four missions by having a tank fly around and the rest of the squad sniping. TFTD maps are typically featureless, so it's usually possible to snipe from pretty much any point ''to'' any point.

			::: TFTD tanks can indeed fly on land, including base defense missions. Though pretty much the only areas where theres ''room'' to fly in your base would be the sub-pens. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 23:21, 6 May 2011 (EDT)

Jasonred: /* Are SWS worth it in TFTD? */

2011-05-07T03:05:36Z

Are SWS worth it in TFTD?

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:05, 7 May 2011
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	: I still haven't fully worked out what their game is with respect to enemy reaction fire though, as they seem to follow slightly different rules than the tanks in UFO from observation. I mean, look at their reactions and compare how often the Coelacanths attract reaction fire compared to 4 throw-away rookies with unpredictable reaction levels. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 22:33, 6 May 2011 (EDT)		: I still haven't fully worked out what their game is with respect to enemy reaction fire though, as they seem to follow slightly different rules than the tanks in UFO from observation. I mean, look at their reactions and compare how often the Coelacanths attract reaction fire compared to 4 throw-away rookies with unpredictable reaction levels. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 22:33, 6 May 2011 (EDT)

			:: Multiplayer TFTD? How do you play that? Hot seat style controlling only the humans?

			:: The Sonic Displacer can fly on land??? Really? I can't make mine fly during a base defence mission, could you double check this please?

			:: I don't know how often rookies and tanks draw reaction fire. In fact, during my early playthroughs, I did not know that soldiers could shoot at stuff which they did not "acquire" and only shot at enemies with the flashing number on them. Ever since learning that you could snipe at enemies from far away, and that doing so meant that enemies could NOT reaction fire was a HUGE gamechanger for me. So, nowadays, I typically have the tanks as spotters and the troops just snipe at enemies from across the map. Oh yeah, it's weird how there's not much difference in accuracy between a target 20 tiles away and 30 tiles away... [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 23:05, 6 May 2011 (EDT)

NKF: /* Are SWS worth it in TFTD? */

2011-05-07T02:33:32Z

Are SWS worth it in TFTD?

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:33, 7 May 2011
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	[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 20:47, 6 May 2011 (EDT)		[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 20:47, 6 May 2011 (EDT)

			: Been playing a multiplayer game of TFTD recently and I have to say the SWS rock. They are not a necessity, but even the (unmodified) Gas Cannon Coelacanth is a fantastic machine for assisting (but not replacing) rookies at the start of the game. Cost-wise they're prohibitive, but that's less of a problem as you play. The Sonic Displacer is a truly valuable machine, and not just because it can fly on land.

			: I still haven't fully worked out what their game is with respect to enemy reaction fire though, as they seem to follow slightly different rules than the tanks in UFO from observation. I mean, look at their reactions and compare how often the Coelacanths attract reaction fire compared to 4 throw-away rookies with unpredictable reaction levels. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 22:33, 6 May 2011 (EDT)

Jasonred: /* Are SWS worth it in TFTD? */

2011-05-07T01:10:15Z

Are SWS worth it in TFTD?

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:10, 7 May 2011
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	From my recent playing experience on Superhuman, the answer is a resounding YES.		From my recent playing experience on Superhuman, the answer is a resounding YES.

	Firstly, when you are starting out, the survivability of the tanks is immense. Soldiers cannot even compare their armor and HP, even with Aqua Plastic Armor and Medi-Kits and getting HP from combat experience. As for Displacers, they have 12 less armor on the front than Magnetic Ion Armor, but much more armor on all other locations. And they have HUGE HP. They are much more likely to survive a severe beating than an Aquanaut, and in the event they do survive, they are immediately repaired at base, compared to Aquanaut's being weeks in hospital.		Firstly, when you are starting out, the survivability of the tanks is immense. Soldiers cannot even compare their armor and HP, even with Aqua Plastic Armor and Medi-Kits and getting HP from combat experience. As for Displacers, they have 12 less armor on the front than Magnetic Ion Armor, but much more armor on all other locations. And they have HUGE HP. They are much more likely to survive a severe beating than an Aquanaut, and in the event they do survive, they are immediately repaired at base, compared to Aquanaut's being weeks in hospital.

	Tanks are also immune to MC and morale failure. (unless they kill aquanauts by accident). This is VERY useful before you get MC labs.		Tanks are also immune to MC and morale failure. (unless they kill aquanauts by accident). This is VERY useful before you get MC labs.

	Tanks are immune to zombification. Considering the huge boost that Tentaculats got compared to Chrysalids (flying and extra 20 reactions and much harder to kill), having units that are immune to Tentaculats is a HUGE advantage during missions where they reside. Also, TFTD generally has more hard to destroy nooks and crannies where Tentaculats love to hide. A tentaculat CAN damage a Displacer, but usually won't be able to kill it in 1 turn. I believe that Superhuman Tentaculats can mangle Coelanths quite efficiently. A zombification attack has a 100% chance of zombifying an aquanaut, making it the deadliest attack in the game, other than a DPL to a group of aquanauts. Also, Sonic Cannons lack of autoshot and super high TUs mean that a soldier will almost always not have enough TU to kill a zombie AND the resulting Tentaculat in 1 turn. If you have 2 soldiers in a group, and a tentaculat manages to get one of them, the other soldier is pretty much doomed. Whereas in EU, he could probably autoshot the zombie and then kill the Chrysalid in the same turn.		Tanks are immune to zombification. Considering the huge boost that Tentaculats got compared to Chrysalids (flying and extra 20 reactions and much harder to kill), having units that are immune to Tentaculats is a HUGE advantage during missions where they reside. Also, TFTD generally has more hard to destroy nooks and crannies where Tentaculats love to hide. A tentaculat CAN damage a Displacer, but usually won't be able to kill it in 1 turn. I believe that Superhuman Tentaculats can mangle Coelanths quite efficiently. A zombification attack has a 100% chance of zombifying an aquanaut, making it the deadliest attack in the game, other than a DPL to a group of aquanauts. Also, Sonic Cannons lack of autoshot and super high TUs mean that a soldier will almost always not have enough TU to kill a zombie AND the resulting Tentaculat in 1 turn. If you have 2 soldiers in a group, and a tentaculat manages to get one of them, the other soldier is pretty much doomed. Whereas in EU, he could probably autoshot the zombie and then kill the Chrysalid in the same turn.

	Tanks have better stats than rookies. In fact it takes quite long to get your soldiers better stats than a displacer.		Tanks have better stats than rookies. In fact it takes quite long to get your soldiers better stats than a displacer.

	Tanks regain full energy every turn. This is more important than in EU, because the maps are so much larger.		Tanks regain full energy every turn. This is more important than in EU, because the maps are so much larger.

	The tank will only cost you 400k ONCE. As long as it survives, there is no monthly salary, like soldiers would have. The fact that a tank is much more likely to survive multiple months compared to soldiers helps too.		The tank will only cost you 400k ONCE. As long as it survives, there is no monthly salary, like soldiers would have. The fact that a tank is much more likely to survive multiple months compared to soldiers helps too.

	PWT Displacers are much weaker than a DPL armed soldier. However a D/PWT can carry 8 PWT without using any item space whereas the soldier would use up 8 item slots to carry 1 DPL and 7 ammo. That's 10% of your item limit.		PWT Displacers are much weaker than a DPL armed soldier. However a D/PWT can carry 8 PWT without using any item space whereas the soldier would use up 8 item slots to carry 1 DPL and 7 ammo. That's 10% of your item limit.

	Tanks SAVE ITEM SLOTS. It wasn't as big a problem in EU, where lasers have infinite ammo and Heavy Plasmas have 35 shots, but in TFTD, those 10 shots per Sonic Cannon Ammo do not get very far. You definitely need some reloads for each gun you bring into play.		Tanks SAVE ITEM SLOTS. It wasn't as big a problem in EU, where lasers have infinite ammo and Heavy Plasmas have 35 shots, but in TFTD, those 10 shots per Sonic Cannon Ammo do not get very far. You definitely need some reloads for each gun you bring into play.

	Tank weakness: Cannot use M.C. Disrupters. Tanks also cannot fit through 1 space doorways.		Tank weakness: Cannot use M.C. Disrupters. Tanks also cannot fit through 1 space doorways.

	[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 20:47, 6 May 2011 (EDT)		[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 20:47, 6 May 2011 (EDT)

Jasonred at 01:09, 7 May 2011

2011-05-07T01:09:22Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:09, 7 May 2011
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	Firstly, when you are starting out, the survivability of the tanks is immense. Soldiers cannot even compare their armor and HP, even with Aqua Plastic Armor and Medi-Kits and getting HP from combat experience. As for Displacers, they have 12 less armor on the front than Magnetic Ion Armor, but much more armor on all other locations. And they have HUGE HP. They are much more likely to survive a severe beating than an Aquanaut, and in the event they do survive, they are immediately repaired at base, compared to Aquanaut's being weeks in hospital.		Firstly, when you are starting out, the survivability of the tanks is immense. Soldiers cannot even compare their armor and HP, even with Aqua Plastic Armor and Medi-Kits and getting HP from combat experience. As for Displacers, they have 12 less armor on the front than Magnetic Ion Armor, but much more armor on all other locations. And they have HUGE HP. They are much more likely to survive a severe beating than an Aquanaut, and in the event they do survive, they are immediately repaired at base, compared to Aquanaut's being weeks in hospital.
	Tanks are also immune to MC and morale failure. (unless they kill aquanauts by accident). This is VERY useful before you get MC labs.		Tanks are also immune to MC and morale failure. (unless they kill aquanauts by accident). This is VERY useful before you get MC labs.
			Tanks are immune to zombification. Considering the huge boost that Tentaculats got compared to Chrysalids (flying and extra 20 reactions and much harder to kill), having units that are immune to Tentaculats is a HUGE advantage during missions where they reside. Also, TFTD generally has more hard to destroy nooks and crannies where Tentaculats love to hide. A tentaculat CAN damage a Displacer, but usually won't be able to kill it in 1 turn. I believe that Superhuman Tentaculats can mangle Coelanths quite efficiently. A zombification attack has a 100% chance of zombifying an aquanaut, making it the deadliest attack in the game, other than a DPL to a group of aquanauts. Also, Sonic Cannons lack of autoshot and super high TUs mean that a soldier will almost always not have enough TU to kill a zombie AND the resulting Tentaculat in 1 turn. If you have 2 soldiers in a group, and a tentaculat manages to get one of them, the other soldier is pretty much doomed. Whereas in EU, he could probably autoshot the zombie and then kill the Chrysalid in the same turn.
	Tanks have better stats than rookies. In fact it takes quite long to get your soldiers better stats than a displacer.		Tanks have better stats than rookies. In fact it takes quite long to get your soldiers better stats than a displacer.
	Tanks regain full energy every turn. This is more important than in EU, because the maps are so much larger.		Tanks regain full energy every turn. This is more important than in EU, because the maps are so much larger.
	The tank will only cost you 400k ONCE. As long as it survives, there is no monthly salary, like soldiers would have. The fact that a tank is much more likely to survive multiple months compared to soldiers helps too.		The tank will only cost you 400k ONCE. As long as it survives, there is no monthly salary, like soldiers would have. The fact that a tank is much more likely to survive multiple months compared to soldiers helps too.
	PWT Displacers are much weaker than a DPL armed soldier. However a D/PWT can carry 8 PWT without using any item space whereas the soldier would use up 8 item slots to carry 1 DPL and 7 ammo. That's 10% of your item limit.		PWT Displacers are much weaker than a DPL armed soldier. However a D/PWT can carry 8 PWT without using any item space whereas the soldier would use up 8 item slots to carry 1 DPL and 7 ammo. That's 10% of your item limit.
			Tanks SAVE ITEM SLOTS. It wasn't as big a problem in EU, where lasers have infinite ammo and Heavy Plasmas have 35 shots, but in TFTD, those 10 shots per Sonic Cannon Ammo do not get very far. You definitely need some reloads for each gun you bring into play.
	Tank weakness: Cannot use M.C. Disrupters. Tanks also cannot fit through 1 space doorways.		Tank weakness: Cannot use M.C. Disrupters. Tanks also cannot fit through 1 space doorways.

	[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 20:47, 6 May 2011 (EDT)		[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 20:47, 6 May 2011 (EDT)

Jasonred: SWS Wothwhile?

2011-05-07T00:47:43Z

SWS Wothwhile?

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:47, 7 May 2011
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	:: Seb76 has done leaps and bounds, if not miracles, with his loader so far so I wouldn't be surprised if it evolves enough to eventually reroute the reaction fire handler to a better one. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 04:09, 23 June 2009 (EDT)		:: Seb76 has done leaps and bounds, if not miracles, with his loader so far so I wouldn't be surprised if it evolves enough to eventually reroute the reaction fire handler to a better one. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 04:09, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

			I've just played my TFTD, I shot a Lobsterman with my Displacer Gauss from within his sight radius and he returned fire twice, and in fact killed my displacer. [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 20:47, 6 May 2011 (EDT)


			== Are SWS worth it in TFTD? ==

			From my recent playing experience on Superhuman, the answer is a resounding YES.
			Firstly, when you are starting out, the survivability of the tanks is immense. Soldiers cannot even compare their armor and HP, even with Aqua Plastic Armor and Medi-Kits and getting HP from combat experience. As for Displacers, they have 12 less armor on the front than Magnetic Ion Armor, but much more armor on all other locations. And they have HUGE HP. They are much more likely to survive a severe beating than an Aquanaut, and in the event they do survive, they are immediately repaired at base, compared to Aquanaut's being weeks in hospital.
			Tanks are also immune to MC and morale failure. (unless they kill aquanauts by accident). This is VERY useful before you get MC labs.
			Tanks have better stats than rookies. In fact it takes quite long to get your soldiers better stats than a displacer.
			Tanks regain full energy every turn. This is more important than in EU, because the maps are so much larger.
			The tank will only cost you 400k ONCE. As long as it survives, there is no monthly salary, like soldiers would have. The fact that a tank is much more likely to survive multiple months compared to soldiers helps too.
			PWT Displacers are much weaker than a DPL armed soldier. However a D/PWT can carry 8 PWT without using any item space whereas the soldier would use up 8 item slots to carry 1 DPL and 7 ammo. That's 10% of your item limit.
			Tank weakness: Cannot use M.C. Disrupters. Tanks also cannot fit through 1 space doorways.

			[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 20:47, 6 May 2011 (EDT)