Talk:LOFTEMPS.DAT - Revision history

Bomb Bloke: /* LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility */

2011-03-02T11:56:44Z

LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:56, 2 March 2011
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	--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 01 March 2011		--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 01 March 2011

			:Righto, I must've managed to mess up in my tests, thanks for clearing it up. It'll be helpful for the [http://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/Skyranger-APC-creation-thread-t8065.html MudRanger] project too! :) - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 06:56, 2 March 2011 (EST)

Daiky at 19:46, 1 March 2011

2011-03-01T19:46:28Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:46, 1 March 2011
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	I have done testing myself on this topic. I set the mcd[31] to 0 (= see through) of a ufo wall, and I can see the inside of the ufo, but not the aliens in it. And my theory is confirmed. Visibility of tiles and units are calculated in two ways: visibility of tiles uses mcd[31], visibility of aliens uses loftemps.dat. I will update ufopaedia accordingly.		I have done testing myself on this topic. I set the mcd[31] to 0 (= see through) of a ufo wall, and I can see the inside of the ufo, but not the aliens in it. And my theory is confirmed. Visibility of tiles and units are calculated in two ways: visibility of tiles uses mcd[31], visibility of aliens uses loftemps.dat. I will update ufopaedia accordingly.

	--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] ~~19 Nov 2010~~		--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 01 March 2011

Daiky: /* LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility */

2011-03-01T19:46:08Z

LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:46, 1 March 2011
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	:I've since done some further tests with MCD[31] and found it doesn't seem to affect "object" tiles either. I'm beginning to strongly suspect it has nothing to do with vision at all. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 06:20, 1 February 2011 (EST)		:I've since done some further tests with MCD[31] and found it doesn't seem to affect "object" tiles either. I'm beginning to strongly suspect it has nothing to do with vision at all. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 06:20, 1 February 2011 (EST)

			I have done testing myself on this topic. I set the mcd[31] to 0 (= see through) of a ufo wall, and I can see the inside of the ufo, but not the aliens in it. And my theory is confirmed. Visibility of tiles and units are calculated in two ways: visibility of tiles uses mcd[31], visibility of aliens uses loftemps.dat. I will update ufopaedia accordingly.

			--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 19 Nov 2010

Bomb Bloke: /* LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility */

2011-02-01T11:53:31Z

LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:53, 1 February 2011
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	Anyway, this is the way it'll be implemented in OpenXcom, until a better theory shows up.		Anyway, this is the way it'll be implemented in OpenXcom, until a better theory shows up.
	--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 01 Feb 2011		--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 01 Feb 2011
	:Floor/ceiling tiles do not always block LOS - they only block what their associated LOFTemps records tell them to block. For example, the red gravlift tiles present in UFOs and alien bases don't block sight at all.		:Floor/ceiling tiles do not always block LOS - they only block what their associated LOFTemps records tell them to block. For example, the red gravlift tiles present in UFOs and alien bases don't block sight at all.''(Edit: Scratch that, they DO block LOS, but not LOF - making them a good tile to investigate!)''

	:I strongly recommend testing the patched version of the Lightning I linked above, and comparing it to the original version. ALL the changes made to alter the way it blocks vision were applied to the LOFTemps record indexes, whereas attempts to mess with MCD[31] did nothing we were able to discern. It would also be a good idea to read [http://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/The-Lightning-t417.html this thread], which discusses the redesign process.		:I strongly recommend testing the patched version of the Lightning I linked above, and comparing it to the original version. ALL the changes made to alter the way it blocks vision were applied to the LOFTemps record indexes, whereas attempts to mess with MCD[31] did nothing we were able to discern. It would also be a good idea to read [http://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/The-Lightning-t417.html this thread], which discusses the redesign process.

Bomb Bloke: /* LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility */

2011-02-01T11:20:19Z

LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:20, 1 February 2011
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	Anyway, this is the way it'll be implemented in OpenXcom, until a better theory shows up.		Anyway, this is the way it'll be implemented in OpenXcom, until a better theory shows up.
	--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 01 Feb 2011		--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 01 Feb 2011
			:Floor/ceiling tiles do not always block LOS - they only block what their associated LOFTemps records tell them to block. For example, the red gravlift tiles present in UFOs and alien bases don't block sight at all.

			:I strongly recommend testing the patched version of the Lightning I linked above, and comparing it to the original version. ALL the changes made to alter the way it blocks vision were applied to the LOFTemps record indexes, whereas attempts to mess with MCD[31] did nothing we were able to discern. It would also be a good idea to read [http://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/The-Lightning-t417.html this thread], which discusses the redesign process.

			:It does seem to be true that the game uses slightly more advanced calculations to determine whether you can see an alien, as opposed to whether you can see a given tile. If you have a soldier standing inside the Skyranger, for example, and tell him to turn around, he'll be able to see terrain outside the craft that shouldn't be visible EVEN IF you account for the diagonal gaps in the LOFTemps - and yet, if you block these gaps, the tiles in concern would otherwise be hidden. Whether an alien can be seen, on the other hand, seems to depend entirely on whether there's a line going from the head of the unit to the center of the alien's LOFTemp object (Seb located the firing point-of-origins and noted them [[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke:Firing_Accuracy#Firing_Point_Origin\|here]] (they're adjusted according to unit [[Height]], presumably the sight point-of-origin uses the same co-ords but located at the very top of the unit instead of partway down - this seems to be the case, given how LOS is affected by soldiers standing on haybales in barns for eg), while you can get some info on the use of LOFTemp objects by units [[Talk:UNITREF.DAT#Offsets_0x30_.26_0x34\|here]]).

			:I've since done some further tests with MCD[31] and found it doesn't seem to affect "object" tiles either. I'm beginning to strongly suspect it has nothing to do with vision at all. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 06:20, 1 February 2011 (EST)

Daiky: /* LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility */

2011-02-01T10:30:09Z

LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility

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	::Tried setting UFO floor tiles to 1 tonight, didn't affect the vision of either my soldiers or the aliens. Still not conclusive, mind you - it may only work on walls or other "non-floor" tiles. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 10:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)		::Tried setting UFO floor tiles to 1 tonight, didn't affect the vision of either my soldiers or the aliens. Still not conclusive, mind you - it may only work on walls or other "non-floor" tiles. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 10:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

			I have another possible theory, but not tested it yet.
			1) MCD[31] is used for scanning the static terrain and reveiling fog of war. The LOFTemps are used only to test on visibilty between units. The reason why I think this, is because using LOFTemps to test on the visibility of all tiles in the field of view would take a lot of calculations, because the resolution is so much higher.
			2) floors/ceiling tiles always block LOS. MCD[31] is ignored for floor type tiles. There are no floor tiles that I know of in the game where you can see through. By the way other types of blocking (HE, smoke, fire) are 0 too in the MCD, but I believe HE/smoke/fire is not going through roofs like they don't exist? So they must have some seperate hardcoded block value (I guess 1 in all cases).
			Anyway, this is the way it'll be implemented in OpenXcom, until a better theory shows up.
			--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 01 Feb 2011

Bomb Bloke: /* LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility */

2010-11-20T10:32:01Z

LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:32, 20 November 2010
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	:I know for a fact that tiles with an MCD[31] value of 0 will block visibility according to their LOFTemps records. It may be that tiles with a value of 1 block ''all'' visibility regardless of their LOFTemps records. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 13:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC)		:I know for a fact that tiles with an MCD[31] value of 0 will block visibility according to their LOFTemps records. It may be that tiles with a value of 1 block ''all'' visibility regardless of their LOFTemps records. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 13:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

			::Tried setting UFO floor tiles to 1 tonight, didn't affect the vision of either my soldiers or the aliens. Still not conclusive, mind you - it may only work on walls or other "non-floor" tiles. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 10:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Bomb Bloke at 13:10, 19 November 2010

2010-11-19T13:10:19Z

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	--[[User:Bomb Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] 04:20, 18 Nov 2005 (PST)		--[[User:Bomb Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] 04:20, 18 Nov 2005 (PST)

	~~----~~
			==LOFTemps visibility VS MCD visibility==

	The article says "These are used for Line of sight (LOS) and line of fire (LOF) purposes." But in the MCD record, offset 31, there is a flag "Can see through?"... This makes me think LOFTEMPS are not used for LOS?		The article says "These are used for Line of sight (LOS) and line of fire (LOF) purposes." But in the MCD record, offset 31, there is a flag "Can see through?"... This makes me think LOFTEMPS are not used for LOS?

	--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 19 Nov 2010		--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 19 Nov 2010

			:If you try [http://www.strategycore.co.uk/files/index.php?dlid=671 this patched version of the Lightning], you should find that the thing has no "cracks"; that is to say, you can't see out of it unless you ''step'' out of it. However, the walls have that MCD flag set to 1, while the floors/ceiling have it set to 0. Both are obviously blocking visibility, hence the MCD article is either wrong, or at the very least misleading.

			:I know for a fact that tiles with an MCD[31] value of 0 will block visibility according to their LOFTemps records. It may be that tiles with a value of 1 block ''all'' visibility regardless of their LOFTemps records. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 13:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Daiky at 10:45, 19 November 2010

2010-11-19T10:45:16Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:45, 19 November 2010
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	--[[User:Bomb Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] 04:20, 18 Nov 2005 (PST)		--[[User:Bomb Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] 04:20, 18 Nov 2005 (PST)

			----

			The article says "These are used for Line of sight (LOS) and line of fire (LOF) purposes." But in the MCD record, offset 31, there is a flag "Can see through?"... This makes me think LOFTEMPS are not used for LOS?

			--[[User:Daiky\|Daiky]] 19 Nov 2010

Bomb Bloke at 12:20, 18 November 2005

2005-11-18T12:20:59Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:20, 18 November 2005
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	Thanks everybody! Wow, that's a lot of info. Cool... I (or anybody else) will copy over to the Article anything in this Discussion that's not yet there (looks like most of it is), then delete this Discussion ---[[User:MikeTheRed\|MikeTheRed]] 16:38, 17 Nov 2005 (PST)		Thanks everybody! Wow, that's a lot of info. Cool... I (or anybody else) will copy over to the Article anything in this Discussion that's not yet there (looks like most of it is), then delete this Discussion ---[[User:MikeTheRed\|MikeTheRed]] 16:38, 17 Nov 2005 (PST)

			----

			I get the impression that you could add to the loftemps.dat file, if you wanted to allow for more shapes... I see no reason why 256 different indexes would be a problem.

			--[[User:Bomb Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] 04:20, 18 Nov 2005 (PST)