Talk:Best Starting Weapons (TFTD) - Revision history

Spike: /* What happened to the laser weapons, Part 2 */ new section

2012-09-07T00:23:53Z

What happened to the laser weapons, Part 2: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:23, 7 September 2012
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	Contrary to the article I recall Xarquid being rather resistant against tazer attacks. They will go down eventually but take several tazer attacks. --[[User:Tauon\|Tauon]] 14:44, 31 January 2011 (EST)		Contrary to the article I recall Xarquid being rather resistant against tazer attacks. They will go down eventually but take several tazer attacks. --[[User:Tauon\|Tauon]] 14:44, 31 January 2011 (EST)

			== What happened to the laser weapons, Part 2 ==

			Thinking about the fairly poor starting weapons in TFTD, the Dart Gun and Jet Harpoon, got me thinking again about the mysterious disappearance of X-Com's laser weapons developed 40 years earlier. We know that the other X-Com weapons depended on Elerium, and that is no longer available. But the laser weapons were pure Earth tech. What happened?

			How about this then for a mod: instead of Dart Gun and Jet Harpoon, we have Laser Pistol and Laser Rifle, assuming some modifications for underwater use. Definitely there would be a reduced effectiveness underwater. You could cut the damage in half for the Aqua-Lasers, relative to the UFO land-based lasers. You could reduce accuracy and TU efficiency. You could have limited, rather than unlimited shots, due to overheating or something similar (I think the X-Com designers realised unlimited ammo was a bad idea). You could even nerf the laser weapons right down so much they had identical stats to the Dart Gun and Jet Harpoon, differing only in the picture and description in the UFOPedia entry (and the damage type, see below).

			Potentially the mod would allow the Laser Pistol and Laser Rifle to have normal (UFO) stats on land missions. But if this was a technical problem, or deemed to be a game balance problem (since an unnerfed Laser Rifle would be much better than a Gauss Rifle, on land), you could state that the modifications required for underwater operation meant that the laser weapons effectiveness on land was equally reduced. Sort of reasonable, as excuses go.

			If the stats were fully nerfed down to Dart Gun and Jet Harpoon level, all you have is a description change that helps to keep the X-Com "canon" a little more self-consistent. If you don't fully nerf the Laser weapons, you have the opportunity to make the TFTD starting weapon mix a little less useless and a little more versatile. Either of those is a good thing.

			One problem you have in implementation is that you would not want Aqua-Lasers to use the AP damage type, and the Laser damage type is not available in TFTD because it's been usurped by the Gauss damage type. Possibly use the Electrical damage type? You'd have to look at all the vulnerabilities and resistances to see if that was balanced. Actually, using the HE damage type (but non explosively) would not be unreasonable, that's probably something similar to what happens at the target with an underwater laser.

			Assuming 50% less damage than in UFO, here's a quick comparison of proposed underwater Aqua-Lasers vs the existing sharp, pointy TFTD starting weapons.

			Weapon Dmg Ammo Snap: Aimed: Auto: Dmg/ Best Dmg/ Best
			TU Ac TU Ac TU Ac %TU Mode Turn Mode

			Dart Gun 16 12 20 40 50 80 -- -- .24 Snap 24 Snap
			Aqua-Laser Pistol 23 12? 20 40 55 68 25 28 .58 Auto 58 Auto
			Jet Harpoon 32 10 35 60 70 90 40 40 .72 Auto 58 Auto
			Aqua-Laser Rifle 30 10? 25 65 50 100 34 46 .91 Auto 62 Auto

			FP/%TU - average damage per 1% TUs ("instantaneous")
			FP/Turn - average damage per single full turn ("cylic")

			This isn't a specific suggestion, it's just thinking-out-loud at this point.

			[[User:Spike\|Spike]] 20:23, 6 September 2012 (EDT)

Tauon at 19:44, 31 January 2011

2011-01-31T19:44:03Z

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	: Coincidentally, I just did a test earlier. Stared a new easy game, dumped all the weapons off the Triton and armed one GC (5 HE clips) and one Torpedo Launcher (5 Large Torpedoes). Wiped the first mission's map clean with these two weapons with only two spotters lost - one to a misfire. The GC-HE's pretty good at slicing through chunks of volcanic map terrain. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 03:29, 18 April 2009 (EDT)		: Coincidentally, I just did a test earlier. Stared a new easy game, dumped all the weapons off the Triton and armed one GC (5 HE clips) and one Torpedo Launcher (5 Large Torpedoes). Wiped the first mission's map clean with these two weapons with only two spotters lost - one to a misfire. The GC-HE's pretty good at slicing through chunks of volcanic map terrain. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 03:29, 18 April 2009 (EDT)


			== Thermal Tazer ==

			Contrary to the article I recall Xarquid being rather resistant against tazer attacks. They will go down eventually but take several tazer attacks. --[[User:Tauon\|Tauon]] 14:44, 31 January 2011 (EST)

NKF: /* General Discussion */

2009-07-21T07:10:34Z

General Discussion

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	On the very first mission or two I may have Jet Harpoons. It works excellent on aquatoids. Unfortunately, Gill Men are refuse to die unless taken three (sometimes two) harpoons. Torpedo Launcher is cumbersome. It could have been great if it was mortar!. Or if aliens walked in compact groups by 3-4. Hydrojet Cannon is heavy and underwater only. Most articles says "There should be balanced set of weapons". Well, for me the most balanced set was everyone wielding Gas Cannon (and Magna-Blast Grenade). My GC+MBG equipped squad have proven reliable and capable. Meanwhile I research Sensor, Medikit, loot alien sub and research Sonic Rifle. And again, have balanced set of weapons including Sonic Rifle for every operative. Not least, uniform weapons for entire crew gives advantage of uniform ammunition, so I usually take 15 clips for 10 guns. --[[User:Wasd\|Wasd]] 09:25, 20 July 2009 (EDT)		On the very first mission or two I may have Jet Harpoons. It works excellent on aquatoids. Unfortunately, Gill Men are refuse to die unless taken three (sometimes two) harpoons. Torpedo Launcher is cumbersome. It could have been great if it was mortar!. Or if aliens walked in compact groups by 3-4. Hydrojet Cannon is heavy and underwater only. Most articles says "There should be balanced set of weapons". Well, for me the most balanced set was everyone wielding Gas Cannon (and Magna-Blast Grenade). My GC+MBG equipped squad have proven reliable and capable. Meanwhile I research Sensor, Medikit, loot alien sub and research Sonic Rifle. And again, have balanced set of weapons including Sonic Rifle for every operative. Not least, uniform weapons for entire crew gives advantage of uniform ammunition, so I usually take 15 clips for 10 guns. --[[User:Wasd\|Wasd]] 09:25, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

			: Unfortunately with TFTD, A general balanced set of weapons doesn't really count the first two harpoon weapons. Much. If at all. They don't really have the same life span as UFO's pistol and rifle thanks to the tougher aliens.

			: The Gas-Cannon has an advantage as it does a bit of everything, and grenades are always a good addition to any direct fire weapons. That's already makes for a very good mix of weapons to start with. The only thing missing is rapid fire support until you get the Gauss and sonic weapons. But this is X-COM - it lets you get away with a lot of things. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 03:10, 21 July 2009 (EDT)

Wasd: /* General Discussion */

2009-07-20T13:25:34Z

General Discussion

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	:: As for manufacturing time, it is not a crippling amount of engineering time, but it is still pretty significant, especially on higher difficulty levels. You can easily burn through 15 clips per mission, if Gauss is your main armament. Admittedly, 4 missions a month only comes to 60 rifle clips, which is 2 days for 30 engineers, so it's not that bad... as for cost... gauss ammo is cheaper overall than Sonic ammo, right?		:: As for manufacturing time, it is not a crippling amount of engineering time, but it is still pretty significant, especially on higher difficulty levels. You can easily burn through 15 clips per mission, if Gauss is your main armament. Admittedly, 4 missions a month only comes to 60 rifle clips, which is 2 days for 30 engineers, so it's not that bad... as for cost... gauss ammo is cheaper overall than Sonic ammo, right?

			On the very first mission or two I may have Jet Harpoons. It works excellent on aquatoids. Unfortunately, Gill Men are refuse to die unless taken three (sometimes two) harpoons. Torpedo Launcher is cumbersome. It could have been great if it was mortar!. Or if aliens walked in compact groups by 3-4. Hydrojet Cannon is heavy and underwater only. Most articles says "There should be balanced set of weapons". Well, for me the most balanced set was everyone wielding Gas Cannon (and Magna-Blast Grenade). My GC+MBG equipped squad have proven reliable and capable. Meanwhile I research Sensor, Medikit, loot alien sub and research Sonic Rifle. And again, have balanced set of weapons including Sonic Rifle for every operative. Not least, uniform weapons for entire crew gives advantage of uniform ammunition, so I usually take 15 clips for 10 guns. --[[User:Wasd\|Wasd]] 09:25, 20 July 2009 (EDT)


	----		----

	All righty, thanks to recent discussions, I've inflicted some changes to the main article. I don't know if that's improved the article any bit, but hopefully it's a bit more objective than it was. Oh well, as is the nature of our wiki articles, they're ever being improved. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 06:05, 7 April 2009 (EDT)		All righty, thanks to recent discussions, I've inflicted some changes to the main article. I don't know if that's improved the article any bit, but hopefully it's a bit more objective than it was. Oh well, as is the nature of our wiki articles, they're ever being improved. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 06:05, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

	== Jet Harpoon ==		== Jet Harpoon ==

Wasd: /* Hydrojet Cannon vs Gas Cannon */

2009-07-20T13:24:24Z

Hydrojet Cannon vs Gas Cannon

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:24, 20 July 2009
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	:: My statistics tells that on very rare occasion HjC will perform better than GC. In fact, my first move in new game is ordering GC for entire crew. And dumping all other as soon as it arrives. --[[User:Wasd\|Wasd]] 09:23, 20 July 2009 (EDT)		:: My statistics tells that on very rare occasion HjC will perform better than GC. In fact, my first move in new game is ordering GC for entire crew. And dumping all other as soon as it arrives. --[[User:Wasd\|Wasd]] 09:23, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

	On the very first mission or two I may have Jet Harpoons. It works excellent on aquatoids. Unfortunately, Gill Men are refuse to die unless taken three (sometimes two) harpoons. Torpedo Launcher is cumbersome. It could have been great if it was mortar!. Or if aliens walked in compact groups by 3-4. Hydrojet Cannon is heavy and underwater only. Most articles says "There should be balanced set of weapons". Well, for me the most balanced set was everyone wielding Gas Cannon (and Magna-Blast Grenade). My GC+MBG equipped squad have proven reliable and capable. Meanwhile I research Sensor, Medikit, loot alien sub and research Sonic Rifle. And again, have balanced set of weapons including Sonic Rifle for every operative. Not least, uniform weapons for entire crew gives advantage of uniform ammunition, so I usually take 15 clips for 10 guns. --[[User:Wasd\|Wasd]] 09:23, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

	== Gas Cannon with HE used to down Lobstermen ==		== Gas Cannon with HE used to down Lobstermen ==

Wasd: /* Hydrojet Cannon vs Gas Cannon */

2009-07-20T13:23:28Z

Hydrojet Cannon vs Gas Cannon

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:23, 20 July 2009
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	:: The GC being a better Torpedo launcher is Jasonred's analogy of it - but I can't reallly really disagree with it! I've always thought of it as a mini torpedo launcher for land based missions myself. The only place where the Torpedo launcher would trump the Gas Cannon is for aimed shots, when underwater, when carried by a crack marksmans and for raw firepower. That 110% accuracy isn't as good as its original counterpart, but still a most welcome accuracy boost. The extra trials offered by the GC (and HjC) does make it more preferable. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 14:48, 7 April 2009 (EDT)		:: The GC being a better Torpedo launcher is Jasonred's analogy of it - but I can't reallly really disagree with it! I've always thought of it as a mini torpedo launcher for land based missions myself. The only place where the Torpedo launcher would trump the Gas Cannon is for aimed shots, when underwater, when carried by a crack marksmans and for raw firepower. That 110% accuracy isn't as good as its original counterpart, but still a most welcome accuracy boost. The extra trials offered by the GC (and HjC) does make it more preferable. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 14:48, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

			:: My statistics tells that on very rare occasion HjC will perform better than GC. In fact, my first move in new game is ordering GC for entire crew. And dumping all other as soon as it arrives. --[[User:Wasd\|Wasd]] 09:23, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

			On the very first mission or two I may have Jet Harpoons. It works excellent on aquatoids. Unfortunately, Gill Men are refuse to die unless taken three (sometimes two) harpoons. Torpedo Launcher is cumbersome. It could have been great if it was mortar!. Or if aliens walked in compact groups by 3-4. Hydrojet Cannon is heavy and underwater only. Most articles says "There should be balanced set of weapons". Well, for me the most balanced set was everyone wielding Gas Cannon (and Magna-Blast Grenade). My GC+MBG equipped squad have proven reliable and capable. Meanwhile I research Sensor, Medikit, loot alien sub and research Sonic Rifle. And again, have balanced set of weapons including Sonic Rifle for every operative. Not least, uniform weapons for entire crew gives advantage of uniform ammunition, so I usually take 15 clips for 10 guns. --[[User:Wasd\|Wasd]] 09:23, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

	== Gas Cannon with HE used to down Lobstermen ==		== Gas Cannon with HE used to down Lobstermen ==

NKF: Blast!

2009-04-18T07:29:44Z

Blast!

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:29, 18 April 2009
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	Question: any difference between the GC-HE at clearing terrain compared to the Large Torpedos? [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 23:40, 17 April 2009 (EDT)		Question: any difference between the GC-HE at clearing terrain compared to the Large Torpedos? [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 23:40, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

			: Good question. Basically anything of an HE nature is good at clearing terrain. The Large Torpedo has a blast diameter of 13, while the GC-HE has a blast diameter of 9. So one will create a really big ring - the other two medium rings - which you can set apart at any range you wish. Which of the two weapons is better to use will depend on what shape you want to carve out in a single turn.

			: Coincidentally, I just did a test earlier. Stared a new easy game, dumped all the weapons off the Triton and armed one GC (5 HE clips) and one Torpedo Launcher (5 Large Torpedoes). Wiped the first mission's map clean with these two weapons with only two spotters lost - one to a misfire. The GC-HE's pretty good at slicing through chunks of volcanic map terrain. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 03:29, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

Jasonred at 03:40, 18 April 2009

2009-04-18T03:40:35Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:40, 18 April 2009
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	: It's an error. Fridayitis - and a long day at work are part to blame - being rather baffled by the small torpedo (not having really examined it this closely before) also contributed. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 15:44, 17 April 2009 (EDT)		: It's an error. Fridayitis - and a long day at work are part to blame - being rather baffled by the small torpedo (not having really examined it this closely before) also contributed. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 15:44, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

			----

			Question: any difference between the GC-HE at clearing terrain compared to the Large Torpedos? [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 23:40, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

NKF: /* Weapons not covered */ Whoops indeed

2009-04-17T19:44:20Z

Weapons not covered: Whoops indeed

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:44, 17 April 2009
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	[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 14:04, 17 April 2009 (EDT)		[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 14:04, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

			: It's an error. Fridayitis - and a long day at work are part to blame - being rather baffled by the small torpedo (not having really examined it this closely before) also contributed. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 15:44, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Jasonred: small and large rockets only have a 25 point difference?

2009-04-17T18:04:26Z

small and large rockets only have a 25 point difference?

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:04, 17 April 2009
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	I was actually thinking of putting the weapons that weren't covered into a separate category. Support weapons or something along those lines. The article mainly covers basic ranged firearms at present. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 01:44, 16 April 2009 (EDT)		I was actually thinking of putting the weapons that weren't covered into a separate category. Support weapons or something along those lines. The article mainly covers basic ranged firearms at present. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 01:44, 16 April 2009 (EDT)


			-----

			NKF, Either you have access to some math that I don't, or you made an error. Looks to me like small and large rockets only have a 25 point difference, not 50!

			[[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 14:04, 17 April 2009 (EDT)