Talk:Base Defence Systems - Revision history

Mugwump: /* Monthly Score */

2021-06-01T18:24:32Z

Monthly Score

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:24, 1 June 2021
Line 67:		Line 67:
	I guess it's assumed that ships destroyed by your base defenses count toward your monthly score/funding? [[User:Mugwump\|Mugwump]] ([[User talk:Mugwump\|talk]]) 18:24, 1 June 2021 (UTC)		I guess it's assumed that ships destroyed by your base defenses count toward your monthly score/funding? [[User:Mugwump\|Mugwump]] ([[User talk:Mugwump\|talk]]) 18:24, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
	: Actually there's no indication that they count for your score. UFOs destroyed during aerial interceptions count, but the Base Defense shootout is a different mechanic. So, this is undetermined. [[User:Hobbes\|Hobbes]] ([[User talk:Hobbes\|talk]]) 03:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)		: Actually there's no indication that they count for your score. UFOs destroyed during aerial interceptions count, but the Base Defense shootout is a different mechanic. So, this is undetermined. [[User:Hobbes\|Hobbes]] ([[User talk:Hobbes\|talk]]) 03:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
	:: Thanks and I saw somewhere else since that it's believed Base Defense shootout doesn't count		:: Thanks and I saw somewhere else since that it's believed Base Defense shootout doesn't count [[User:Mugwump\|Mugwump]] ([[User talk:Mugwump\|talk]]) 18:24, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Mugwump: /* Monthly Score */

2021-06-01T18:24:19Z

Monthly Score

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:24, 1 June 2021
Line 65:		Line 65:
	== Monthly Score ==		== Monthly Score ==

	I guess it's assumed that ships destroyed by your base defenses count toward your monthly score/funding?		I guess it's assumed that ships destroyed by your base defenses count toward your monthly score/funding? [[User:Mugwump\|Mugwump]] ([[User talk:Mugwump\|talk]]) 18:24, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
	: Actually there's no indication that they count for your score. UFOs destroyed during aerial interceptions count, but the Base Defense shootout is a different mechanic. So, this is undetermined. [[User:Hobbes\|Hobbes]] ([[User talk:Hobbes\|talk]]) 03:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)		: Actually there's no indication that they count for your score. UFOs destroyed during aerial interceptions count, but the Base Defense shootout is a different mechanic. So, this is undetermined. [[User:Hobbes\|Hobbes]] ([[User talk:Hobbes\|talk]]) 03:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
			:: Thanks and I saw somewhere else since that it's believed Base Defense shootout doesn't count

Hobbes at 03:18, 1 June 2021

2021-06-01T03:18:07Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:18, 1 June 2021
Line 66:		Line 66:

	I guess it's assumed that ships destroyed by your base defenses count toward your monthly score/funding?		I guess it's assumed that ships destroyed by your base defenses count toward your monthly score/funding?
			: Actually there's no indication that they count for your score. UFOs destroyed during aerial interceptions count, but the Base Defense shootout is a different mechanic. So, this is undetermined. [[User:Hobbes\|Hobbes]] ([[User talk:Hobbes\|talk]]) 03:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Mugwump: /* Monthly Score */ new section

2021-05-25T17:43:49Z

Monthly Score: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:43, 25 May 2021
Line 62:		Line 62:

	:After analyzing the CE code, it seems the damage range is 50-150%. - [[User:Morgan525\|Tycho]] ([[User talk:Morgan525\|talk]]) 03:52, 20 February 2016 (EST)		:After analyzing the CE code, it seems the damage range is 50-150%. - [[User:Morgan525\|Tycho]] ([[User talk:Morgan525\|talk]]) 03:52, 20 February 2016 (EST)

			== Monthly Score ==

			I guess it's assumed that ships destroyed by your base defenses count toward your monthly score/funding?

Morgan525: /* Penetration Math */

2016-02-20T22:43:13Z

Penetration Math

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:43, 20 February 2016
Line 61:		Line 61:
	Monte Carlo method should be able to find the damage range, actually. Given a save with a Battleship inbound on a base with 10 Fusion Ball Defences + Grav Shield, one would save-scum (or just keep playing while leaving the Battleship swarms alone) and record the number of Fusion Ball hits needed to down the Battleship on each attempt. If it's 50%-150% (as I suspect it is), then the chance in Collector's Edition (3000 Battleship health) should be 1/8 (12.50%) to down it in two hits, 5/6 (83.33%) to down it in three hits or less, and 383/384 (99.74%) to down it in four hits or less (five hits gives certainty). In DOS (3200 Battleship health) it should be 1/18 (5.56%) to down it in two hits, 241/243 (99.18%) to down it in four hits or less and 933119/933120 (99.9999%) to down it in five hits or less (six hits gives certainty; three hits is more complicated and I CBF doing it right now). If it's 0%-200% then the chance to down it in two hits should be 9/32 (28.12%) in CE and 2/9 (22.22%) in DOS, the chance to down it in three hits or less should be under 5/6 (83%), the chance to down it in four hits should be under 23/24 (96%) and the chance to down it in five hits should be under 119/120 (99.2%) (in all cases by a decent margin, since that's actually the chance of doing under 2400 damage). My recollections don't match that latter set of numbers (I've ''never'' seen four hits fail to down a Battleship in CE, and two-hit kills are fairly rare) but I could be wrong. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 02:22, 18 February 2016 (EST)		Monte Carlo method should be able to find the damage range, actually. Given a save with a Battleship inbound on a base with 10 Fusion Ball Defences + Grav Shield, one would save-scum (or just keep playing while leaving the Battleship swarms alone) and record the number of Fusion Ball hits needed to down the Battleship on each attempt. If it's 50%-150% (as I suspect it is), then the chance in Collector's Edition (3000 Battleship health) should be 1/8 (12.50%) to down it in two hits, 5/6 (83.33%) to down it in three hits or less, and 383/384 (99.74%) to down it in four hits or less (five hits gives certainty). In DOS (3200 Battleship health) it should be 1/18 (5.56%) to down it in two hits, 241/243 (99.18%) to down it in four hits or less and 933119/933120 (99.9999%) to down it in five hits or less (six hits gives certainty; three hits is more complicated and I CBF doing it right now). If it's 0%-200% then the chance to down it in two hits should be 9/32 (28.12%) in CE and 2/9 (22.22%) in DOS, the chance to down it in three hits or less should be under 5/6 (83%), the chance to down it in four hits should be under 23/24 (96%) and the chance to down it in five hits should be under 119/120 (99.2%) (in all cases by a decent margin, since that's actually the chance of doing under 2400 damage). My recollections don't match that latter set of numbers (I've ''never'' seen four hits fail to down a Battleship in CE, and two-hit kills are fairly rare) but I could be wrong. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 02:22, 18 February 2016 (EST)

	:~~From looking at~~ the CE code the damage range is 50-150%. - [[User:Morgan525\|Tycho]] ([[User talk:Morgan525\|talk]]) 03:52, 20 February 2016 (EST)		:After analyzing the CE code, it seems the damage range is 50-150%. - [[User:Morgan525\|Tycho]] ([[User talk:Morgan525\|talk]]) 03:52, 20 February 2016 (EST)

Morgan525: /* Penetration Math */

2016-02-20T08:52:28Z

Penetration Math

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:52, 20 February 2016
Line 60:		Line 60:
	::::--[[User:Jewcifer\|Jewcifer]] 11:36, 29 March 2012 (EDT)		::::--[[User:Jewcifer\|Jewcifer]] 11:36, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
	Monte Carlo method should be able to find the damage range, actually. Given a save with a Battleship inbound on a base with 10 Fusion Ball Defences + Grav Shield, one would save-scum (or just keep playing while leaving the Battleship swarms alone) and record the number of Fusion Ball hits needed to down the Battleship on each attempt. If it's 50%-150% (as I suspect it is), then the chance in Collector's Edition (3000 Battleship health) should be 1/8 (12.50%) to down it in two hits, 5/6 (83.33%) to down it in three hits or less, and 383/384 (99.74%) to down it in four hits or less (five hits gives certainty). In DOS (3200 Battleship health) it should be 1/18 (5.56%) to down it in two hits, 241/243 (99.18%) to down it in four hits or less and 933119/933120 (99.9999%) to down it in five hits or less (six hits gives certainty; three hits is more complicated and I CBF doing it right now). If it's 0%-200% then the chance to down it in two hits should be 9/32 (28.12%) in CE and 2/9 (22.22%) in DOS, the chance to down it in three hits or less should be under 5/6 (83%), the chance to down it in four hits should be under 23/24 (96%) and the chance to down it in five hits should be under 119/120 (99.2%) (in all cases by a decent margin, since that's actually the chance of doing under 2400 damage). My recollections don't match that latter set of numbers (I've ''never'' seen four hits fail to down a Battleship in CE, and two-hit kills are fairly rare) but I could be wrong. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 02:22, 18 February 2016 (EST)		Monte Carlo method should be able to find the damage range, actually. Given a save with a Battleship inbound on a base with 10 Fusion Ball Defences + Grav Shield, one would save-scum (or just keep playing while leaving the Battleship swarms alone) and record the number of Fusion Ball hits needed to down the Battleship on each attempt. If it's 50%-150% (as I suspect it is), then the chance in Collector's Edition (3000 Battleship health) should be 1/8 (12.50%) to down it in two hits, 5/6 (83.33%) to down it in three hits or less, and 383/384 (99.74%) to down it in four hits or less (five hits gives certainty). In DOS (3200 Battleship health) it should be 1/18 (5.56%) to down it in two hits, 241/243 (99.18%) to down it in four hits or less and 933119/933120 (99.9999%) to down it in five hits or less (six hits gives certainty; three hits is more complicated and I CBF doing it right now). If it's 0%-200% then the chance to down it in two hits should be 9/32 (28.12%) in CE and 2/9 (22.22%) in DOS, the chance to down it in three hits or less should be under 5/6 (83%), the chance to down it in four hits should be under 23/24 (96%) and the chance to down it in five hits should be under 119/120 (99.2%) (in all cases by a decent margin, since that's actually the chance of doing under 2400 damage). My recollections don't match that latter set of numbers (I've ''never'' seen four hits fail to down a Battleship in CE, and two-hit kills are fairly rare) but I could be wrong. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 02:22, 18 February 2016 (EST)

			:From looking at the CE code the damage range is 50-150%. - [[User:Morgan525\|Tycho]] ([[User talk:Morgan525\|talk]]) 03:52, 20 February 2016 (EST)

Magic9mushroom: /* Penetration Math */ Did some numbers to allow testing but I don't have an appropriate savegame myself right this instant.

2016-02-18T07:22:29Z

Penetration Math: Did some numbers to allow testing but I don't have an appropriate savegame myself right this instant.

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:22, 18 February 2016
Line 59:		Line 59:
	::::Thanks again for the replies!		::::Thanks again for the replies!
	::::--[[User:Jewcifer\|Jewcifer]] 11:36, 29 March 2012 (EDT)		::::--[[User:Jewcifer\|Jewcifer]] 11:36, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
			Monte Carlo method should be able to find the damage range, actually. Given a save with a Battleship inbound on a base with 10 Fusion Ball Defences + Grav Shield, one would save-scum (or just keep playing while leaving the Battleship swarms alone) and record the number of Fusion Ball hits needed to down the Battleship on each attempt. If it's 50%-150% (as I suspect it is), then the chance in Collector's Edition (3000 Battleship health) should be 1/8 (12.50%) to down it in two hits, 5/6 (83.33%) to down it in three hits or less, and 383/384 (99.74%) to down it in four hits or less (five hits gives certainty). In DOS (3200 Battleship health) it should be 1/18 (5.56%) to down it in two hits, 241/243 (99.18%) to down it in four hits or less and 933119/933120 (99.9999%) to down it in five hits or less (six hits gives certainty; three hits is more complicated and I CBF doing it right now). If it's 0%-200% then the chance to down it in two hits should be 9/32 (28.12%) in CE and 2/9 (22.22%) in DOS, the chance to down it in three hits or less should be under 5/6 (83%), the chance to down it in four hits should be under 23/24 (96%) and the chance to down it in five hits should be under 119/120 (99.2%) (in all cases by a decent margin, since that's actually the chance of doing under 2400 damage). My recollections don't match that latter set of numbers (I've ''never'' seen four hits fail to down a Battleship in CE, and two-hit kills are fairly rare) but I could be wrong. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 02:22, 18 February 2016 (EST)

Magic9mushroom: Magic9mushroom moved page Talk:Base Defense Measures to Talk:Base Defence Systems: Closest thing to an official name that's unambiguous ("base defences" from the firing screen, "defence systems" from Grav Shield UFOpaedia). Also spelling becaus...

2015-05-01T09:27:54Z

Magic9mushroom moved page Talk:Base Defense Measures to Talk:Base Defence Systems: Closest thing to an official name that's unambiguous ("base defences" from the firing screen, "defence systems" from Grav Shield UFOpaedia). Also spelling becaus...

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:27, 1 May 2015
(No difference)

Jewcifer: /* Penetration Math */

2012-03-29T15:36:41Z

Penetration Math

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:36, 29 March 2012
Line 29:		Line 29:

	:::Much of the information on this wiki is written off the top of someone's head, especially articles like this one that deal less in hard statistics and more on handing out strategies and tactics (it doesn't even mention how much damage needs to be done to shoot down a battleship!). Many such errors are only corrected when newcomers come along and spot them. There are plenty there, though, so don't be afraid to question anything you see or correct anything you are certain to be wrong. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 04:42, 22 March 2012 (EDT)		:::Much of the information on this wiki is written off the top of someone's head, especially articles like this one that deal less in hard statistics and more on handing out strategies and tactics (it doesn't even mention how much damage needs to be done to shoot down a battleship!). Many such errors are only corrected when newcomers come along and spot them. There are plenty there, though, so don't be afraid to question anything you see or correct anything you are certain to be wrong. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 04:42, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

			::::Thanks guys. Initially I tried to work out a mathematical approach using the probability density function of an irwin–hall distribution, but dealing with variable n due to the accuracy aspect made it way too complicated and confusing for me to handle. Yikes.
			::::So I did what any sensible programmer would do and wrote a quick script to run monte carlo simulations of x-com base defense. I ran 1,500,000 simulations of both of the above scenarios for damage ranges of 100%-100%, 50%-100%, 50%-150%, and 0%-200% (using a discrete uniform distribution within the range). The output is the damage range formula used, the base defense setup (i.e. number of shots, damage, and accuracy), and the average number of attacking ships needed for one to get through:
			100%-100%
			24 shots, 500 damage, 50% accuracy:
			89.46 ships
			6 shots, 1200 damage, 80% accuracy:
			59.12 ships

			50%-100%
			24 shots, 500 damage, 50% accuracy:
			11.63 ships
			6 shots, 1200 damage, 80% accuracy:
			07.88 ships

			50%-150%
			24 shots, 500 damage, 50% accuracy:
			67.75 ships
			6 shots, 1200 damage, 80% accuracy:
			25.19 ships

			0%-200%
			24 shots, 500 damage, 50% accuracy:
			31.32 ships
			6 shots, 1200 damage, 80% accuracy:
			10.86 ships
			::::Nicely enough, the 100%-100% numbers (fixed damage) match my earlier calculations reasonably well, and it seems the 0%-200% numbers are very close to what is in the article! So I think unless someone verifies or is already quite confident the damage range is something other than 0 to double, or maybe has some non-uniform distribution, I'll leave it alone.
			::::I do think this article should mention somewhere that the damage is a variable range. Perhaps go ahead and say 0%-200%, with a note that this maybe should be verified?
			::::Thanks again for the replies!
			::::--[[User:Jewcifer\|Jewcifer]] 11:36, 29 March 2012 (EDT)

Bomb Bloke: /* Penetration Math */

2012-03-22T08:42:47Z

Penetration Math

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:42, 22 March 2012
Line 25:		Line 25:
	::Hmmm, I have seen no mention of variable damage either in-game or anywhere on this wiki (I've been reading through it quite extensively for months before finally getting around to signing up a couple days ago). I think that information should be determined and put somewhere (this article is probably as good a place as any for it). I'm not likely to do that myself (would probably require either extensive simulation or disassembling and hunting through the executable code to determine the range?), but if anyone else does I will run the different calculations appropriately. If the range is 50%-150% it should be only slightly more likely for ships to penetrate in these cases (but not nearly enough to account for the discrepancy), but perhaps if the range is more like 50%-100% (like craft weapons) they would match up with what's in the article. --[[User:Jewcifer\|Jewcifer]] 12:24, 21 March 2012 (EDT)		::Hmmm, I have seen no mention of variable damage either in-game or anywhere on this wiki (I've been reading through it quite extensively for months before finally getting around to signing up a couple days ago). I think that information should be determined and put somewhere (this article is probably as good a place as any for it). I'm not likely to do that myself (would probably require either extensive simulation or disassembling and hunting through the executable code to determine the range?), but if anyone else does I will run the different calculations appropriately. If the range is 50%-150% it should be only slightly more likely for ships to penetrate in these cases (but not nearly enough to account for the discrepancy), but perhaps if the range is more like 50%-100% (like craft weapons) they would match up with what's in the article. --[[User:Jewcifer\|Jewcifer]] 12:24, 21 March 2012 (EDT)
	:::I am 100% sure that damage to UFOs from base defences is variable. I have seen Battleships both die and not die from 2 hits with a Fusion Ball Defence while I was using the Battleship Farming exploit. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] 18:19, 21 March 2012 (EDT)		:::I am 100% sure that damage to UFOs from base defences is variable. I have seen Battleships both die and not die from 2 hits with a Fusion Ball Defence while I was using the Battleship Farming exploit. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] 18:19, 21 March 2012 (EDT)

			:::Indeed, a defense module may deal more then 100% of its rated damage. I've seen two fusion ball shots take out a battleship, and I've seen some require four - the vast majority drop after three. This "proves" a minimum range of 66%-133% (the damage averages required to achieve 2-4 hit take-downs), which strongly suggests the actual range is 50%-150%.

			:::Much of the information on this wiki is written off the top of someone's head, especially articles like this one that deal less in hard statistics and more on handing out strategies and tactics (it doesn't even mention how much damage needs to be done to shoot down a battleship!). Many such errors are only corrected when newcomers come along and spot them. There are plenty there, though, so don't be afraid to question anything you see or correct anything you are certain to be wrong. - <span style="font-size:xx-small"> [[User:Bomb_Bloke\|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke\|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke\|Contribs]])</span> 04:42, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:52, 20 February 2016
Line 60:		Line 60:
	::::--[[User:Jewcifer\|Jewcifer]] 11:36, 29 March 2012 (EDT)		::::--[[User:Jewcifer\|Jewcifer]] 11:36, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
	Monte Carlo method should be able to find the damage range, actually. Given a save with a Battleship inbound on a base with 10 Fusion Ball Defences + Grav Shield, one would save-scum (or just keep playing while leaving the Battleship swarms alone) and record the number of Fusion Ball hits needed to down the Battleship on each attempt. If it's 50%-150% (as I suspect it is), then the chance in Collector's Edition (3000 Battleship health) should be 1/8 (12.50%) to down it in two hits, 5/6 (83.33%) to down it in three hits or less, and 383/384 (99.74%) to down it in four hits or less (five hits gives certainty). In DOS (3200 Battleship health) it should be 1/18 (5.56%) to down it in two hits, 241/243 (99.18%) to down it in four hits or less and 933119/933120 (99.9999%) to down it in five hits or less (six hits gives certainty; three hits is more complicated and I CBF doing it right now). If it's 0%-200% then the chance to down it in two hits should be 9/32 (28.12%) in CE and 2/9 (22.22%) in DOS, the chance to down it in three hits or less should be under 5/6 (83%), the chance to down it in four hits should be under 23/24 (96%) and the chance to down it in five hits should be under 119/120 (99.2%) (in all cases by a decent margin, since that's actually the chance of doing under 2400 damage). My recollections don't match that latter set of numbers (I've ''never'' seen four hits fail to down a Battleship in CE, and two-hit kills are fairly rare) but I could be wrong. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 02:22, 18 February 2016 (EST)		Monte Carlo method should be able to find the damage range, actually. Given a save with a Battleship inbound on a base with 10 Fusion Ball Defences + Grav Shield, one would save-scum (or just keep playing while leaving the Battleship swarms alone) and record the number of Fusion Ball hits needed to down the Battleship on each attempt. If it's 50%-150% (as I suspect it is), then the chance in Collector's Edition (3000 Battleship health) should be 1/8 (12.50%) to down it in two hits, 5/6 (83.33%) to down it in three hits or less, and 383/384 (99.74%) to down it in four hits or less (five hits gives certainty). In DOS (3200 Battleship health) it should be 1/18 (5.56%) to down it in two hits, 241/243 (99.18%) to down it in four hits or less and 933119/933120 (99.9999%) to down it in five hits or less (six hits gives certainty; three hits is more complicated and I CBF doing it right now). If it's 0%-200% then the chance to down it in two hits should be 9/32 (28.12%) in CE and 2/9 (22.22%) in DOS, the chance to down it in three hits or less should be under 5/6 (83%), the chance to down it in four hits should be under 23/24 (96%) and the chance to down it in five hits should be under 119/120 (99.2%) (in all cases by a decent margin, since that's actually the chance of doing under 2400 damage). My recollections don't match that latter set of numbers (I've ''never'' seen four hits fail to down a Battleship in CE, and two-hit kills are fairly rare) but I could be wrong. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 02:22, 18 February 2016 (EST)

			:From looking at the CE code the damage range is 50-150%. - [[User:Morgan525\|Tycho]] ([[User talk:Morgan525\|talk]]) 03:52, 20 February 2016 (EST)