Talk:Alien Inventory Use - Revision history

Zombie: /* Melee Aliens With Guns */ Reply to Spike.

2009-03-13T16:29:55Z

Melee Aliens With Guns: Reply to Spike.

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	:: [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 06:22, 13 March 2009 (CDT)		:: [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 06:22, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

	::: Good suggestion. I gave him his energy back and built a fence around him - one he could still see through to reaction fire - but he still didn't fire on his turn. I even gave him a big pen with room to move around in, same effect. Oh well! [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 08:49, 13 March 2009 (CDT)		:Good suggestion. I gave him his energy back and built a fence around him - one he could still see through to reaction fire - but he still didn't fire on his turn. I even gave him a big pen with room to move around in, same effect. Oh well! [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 08:49, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

			I did some trials on this way back in '04 at the StrategyCore forums. I believe it can be found in the "Rifle butt to the face" thread. Melee-only aliens never use handheld weapons during their turn. They much prefer to charge you and use HTH. (Tests performed on unedited Chryssalids in an alien base with long corridors). --[[User:Zombie\|Zombie]] 11:29, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

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Spike: /* Melee Aliens With Guns */

2009-03-13T13:49:33Z

Melee Aliens With Guns

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	:: [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 06:22, 13 March 2009 (CDT)		:: [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 06:22, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

			::: Good suggestion. I gave him his energy back and built a fence around him - one he could still see through to reaction fire - but he still didn't fire on his turn. I even gave him a big pen with room to move around in, same effect. Oh well! [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 08:49, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

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Jasonred: /* Melee Aliens With Guns */

2009-03-13T11:22:14Z

Melee Aliens With Guns

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	:The Civilian turn is separate from the alien turn, yes. [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 06:00, 13 March 2009 (CDT)		:The Civilian turn is separate from the alien turn, yes. [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 06:00, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

			:: They might act differently when their PATHING is blocked, and when their ENERGY is too low. It might seem the same thing to us, but it might look totally different in lines of code. Better pin them with fences or low hedges to make sure, Spike.

			:: And you're pretty much spot on regarding Reaction Fire. ... Reaction fire is a hard coded kettle of fish which has it's own unique implications. Remember, Reaction Fire allows you to shoot Underwater only weapons above ground, and allows you to fire Blaster Bombs as... is it snap shot or aimed shot?

			:: [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 06:22, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

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Arrow Quivershaft at 11:00, 13 March 2009

2009-03-13T11:00:20Z

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	:: I think that's right unfortunately. I pinned a Pistol-packing Reaper by zapping his Maximum Energy to zero, and he still only fired at me when I walked in front of him during his reaction phase - never on his phase. I wonder if armed Civilians would purposefully fire their weapons on their turn, if they were under Alien mind control (somehow?). I think I read somewhere the Civilian 'turn' is a third turn, separate from the Alien and XCOM turns. Someone did a mod for armed civilians so maybe this was all figured out. [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 05:56, 13 March 2009 (CDT)		:: I think that's right unfortunately. I pinned a Pistol-packing Reaper by zapping his Maximum Energy to zero, and he still only fired at me when I walked in front of him during his reaction phase - never on his phase. I wonder if armed Civilians would purposefully fire their weapons on their turn, if they were under Alien mind control (somehow?). I think I read somewhere the Civilian 'turn' is a third turn, separate from the Alien and XCOM turns. Someone did a mod for armed civilians so maybe this was all figured out. [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 05:56, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

			:The Civilian turn is separate from the alien turn, yes. [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 06:00, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

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Spike: /* Melee Aliens With Guns */

2009-03-13T10:56:37Z

Melee Aliens With Guns

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	The same could be true for melee aliens. They may favour their melee attack (or only have routines for attacking with melee) during their movement turn, but they will freely attack via reaction fire freely because it is an automatic reaction for all off-turn units. That's how I see it anyway. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 05:27, 13 March 2009 (CDT)		The same could be true for melee aliens. They may favour their melee attack (or only have routines for attacking with melee) during their movement turn, but they will freely attack via reaction fire freely because it is an automatic reaction for all off-turn units. That's how I see it anyway. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 05:27, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

			:: I think that's right unfortunately. I pinned a Pistol-packing Reaper by zapping his Maximum Energy to zero, and he still only fired at me when I walked in front of him during his reaction phase - never on his phase. I wonder if armed Civilians would purposefully fire their weapons on their turn, if they were under Alien mind control (somehow?). I think I read somewhere the Civilian 'turn' is a third turn, separate from the Alien and XCOM turns. Someone did a mod for armed civilians so maybe this was all figured out. [[User:Spike\|Spike]] 05:56, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

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NKF: /* Melee Aliens With Guns */

2009-03-13T10:27:40Z

Melee Aliens With Guns

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	:What happens if the melee alien is fenced in, does it just get stuck or does it fire? [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 03:43, 13 March 2009 (CDT)		:What happens if the melee alien is fenced in, does it just get stuck or does it fire? [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 03:43, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

			Just speculation on reaction fire mechanics in general. I think it's an automatic reaction that works with any unit in the game regardless of the unit's ability (or lack of ability) to attack with a ranged weapon. As long as a unit's got a ranged weapon, and it's in its waiting phase, it can use reaction fire given all the right conditions are met.

			With the civilians, I guess any unit that's not "us" is deemed a target to them, hence why they open fire on X-COM and alien alike. However, the civilian AI routine can't use any deliberate attacks. (say, would giving an alien to the civilians cause them to exhibit similar behaviour?)

			The same could be true for melee aliens. They may favour their melee attack (or only have routines for attacking with melee) during their movement turn, but they will freely attack via reaction fire freely because it is an automatic reaction for all off-turn units. That's how I see it anyway. -[[User:NKF\|NKF]] 05:27, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

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Arrow Quivershaft: /* Melee Aliens With Guns */ INdenting.

2009-03-13T08:55:22Z

Melee Aliens With Guns: INdenting.

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	On an alternate idea to explain why the Chryssalid never shoots, if it is indeed shown that melee aliens can shoot guns during the Alien Turn if they have them, is that perhaps the Chryssalid deems its melee weapon to be better. It's been shown elsewhere on the wiki that Chryssalids actually do weapon damage with their melee attack(which is ridiculously powerful) and the game zombifies any soldier killed by the attack. I can't find this research right now, though, so if someone does come across it, please remind me where it is! [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 17:59, 12 March 2009 (CDT)		On an alternate idea to explain why the Chryssalid never shoots, if it is indeed shown that melee aliens can shoot guns during the Alien Turn if they have them, is that perhaps the Chryssalid deems its melee weapon to be better. It's been shown elsewhere on the wiki that Chryssalids actually do weapon damage with their melee attack(which is ridiculously powerful) and the game zombifies any soldier killed by the attack. I can't find this research right now, though, so if someone does come across it, please remind me where it is! [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 17:59, 12 March 2009 (CDT)

	What happens if the melee alien is fenced in, does it just get stuck or does it fire? [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 03:43, 13 March 2009 (CDT)		:What happens if the melee alien is fenced in, does it just get stuck or does it fire? [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 03:43, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

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Jasonred: /* Melee Aliens With Guns */

2009-03-13T08:43:21Z

Melee Aliens With Guns

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:43, 13 March 2009
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	On an alternate idea to explain why the Chryssalid never shoots, if it is indeed shown that melee aliens can shoot guns during the Alien Turn if they have them, is that perhaps the Chryssalid deems its melee weapon to be better. It's been shown elsewhere on the wiki that Chryssalids actually do weapon damage with their melee attack(which is ridiculously powerful) and the game zombifies any soldier killed by the attack. I can't find this research right now, though, so if someone does come across it, please remind me where it is! [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 17:59, 12 March 2009 (CDT)		On an alternate idea to explain why the Chryssalid never shoots, if it is indeed shown that melee aliens can shoot guns during the Alien Turn if they have them, is that perhaps the Chryssalid deems its melee weapon to be better. It's been shown elsewhere on the wiki that Chryssalids actually do weapon damage with their melee attack(which is ridiculously powerful) and the game zombifies any soldier killed by the attack. I can't find this research right now, though, so if someone does come across it, please remind me where it is! [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 17:59, 12 March 2009 (CDT)

			What happens if the melee alien is fenced in, does it just get stuck or does it fire? [[User:Jasonred\|Jasonred]] 03:43, 13 March 2009 (CDT)


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Arrow Quivershaft: Moved to correct location.

2009-03-12T23:00:01Z

Moved to correct location.

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	It is not only Alien inventory that is managed by the AI - human inventory is as well. During the Equip phase of each mission, the AI assigns weapons and equipment to Soldiers from the available pool on the transport. It is interesting to compare this with AI management of Alien inventory. Clearly the processes are different, but there may be some common logic. In particular, perhaps the AI uses logic from the Soldier Equip phase, when deciding which weapons to use (on mind-controlled humans or, less commonly, on ex-mind-controlled aliens). Both sets of decisions span nearly the whole range of weapons in the game. Necessarily since late in the game Soldiers will be armed almost entirely with Alien weapons. This is why I suspect there may be some common or re-used logic. I'm going to research what we already know about the human-arming AI.		It is not only Alien inventory that is managed by the AI - human inventory is as well. During the Equip phase of each mission, the AI assigns weapons and equipment to Soldiers from the available pool on the transport. It is interesting to compare this with AI management of Alien inventory. Clearly the processes are different, but there may be some common logic. In particular, perhaps the AI uses logic from the Soldier Equip phase, when deciding which weapons to use (on mind-controlled humans or, less commonly, on ex-mind-controlled aliens). Both sets of decisions span nearly the whole range of weapons in the game. Necessarily since late in the game Soldiers will be armed almost entirely with Alien weapons. This is why I suspect there may be some common or re-used logic. I'm going to research what we already know about the human-arming AI.



			==Melee Aliens With Guns==

			As detailed [[Talk:Chryssalid#Reaction_firing_Chryssalids.3F.21\|here]], Chryssalids that end up with weapons can indeed reaction fire. I figure the same holds for Reapers, Silacoids and Zombies; the alien won't fire the gun normally but will if you provoke reaction fire. This is liable to be a nonissue with Silacoids and Zombies, due to their low TUs and sluggish reactions. The Reaper is a bit more of a threat, with higher reactions and more TUs. As predicted by Murphy, the one melee alien that can naturally(albeit by a glitch) end up holding a gun is also the most dangerous; Chryssalids have a rather long TU bar and a very high reaction stat(at least for the aliens), meaning they'll often get a chance to shoot at you if they have a gun. Of course, all of these aliens have a 0 for Firing Accuracy, so they're relying entirely on luck to hit you.

			On an alternate idea to explain why the Chryssalid never shoots, if it is indeed shown that melee aliens can shoot guns during the Alien Turn if they have them, is that perhaps the Chryssalid deems its melee weapon to be better. It's been shown elsewhere on the wiki that Chryssalids actually do weapon damage with their melee attack(which is ridiculously powerful) and the game zombifies any soldier killed by the attack. I can't find this research right now, though, so if someone does come across it, please remind me where it is! [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 17:59, 12 March 2009 (CDT)




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	[[User:Spike\|Spike]] 13:29, 6 March 2009 (CST)		[[User:Spike\|Spike]] 13:29, 6 March 2009 (CST)

	~~==Melee Aliens With Guns==~~

	As detailed [[Talk:Chryssalid#Reaction_firing_Chryssalids.3F.21\|here]], Chryssalids that end up with weapons can indeed reaction fire. I figure the same holds for Reapers, Silacoids and Zombies; the alien won't fire the gun normally but will if you provoke reaction fire. This is liable to be a nonissue with Silacoids and Zombies, due to their low TUs and sluggish reactions. The Reaper is a bit more of a threat, with higher reactions and more TUs. As predicted by Murphy, the one melee alien that can naturally(albeit by a glitch) end up holding a gun is also the most dangerous; Chryssalids have a rather long TU bar and a very high reaction stat(at least for the aliens), meaning they'll often get a chance to shoot at you if they have a gun. Of course, all of these aliens have a 0 for Firing Accuracy, so they're relying entirely on luck to hit you.

	On an alternate idea to explain why the Chryssalid never shoots, if it is indeed shown that melee aliens can shoot guns during the Alien Turn if they have them, is that perhaps the Chryssalid deems its melee weapon to be better. It's been shown elsewhere on the wiki that Chryssalids actually do weapon damage with their melee attack(which is ridiculously powerful) and the game zombifies any soldier killed by the attack. I can't find this research right now, though, so if someone does come across it, please remind me where it is! [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 17:59, 12 March 2009 (CDT)

Arrow Quivershaft: Reaction-firing aliens.

2009-03-12T22:59:16Z

Reaction-firing aliens.

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:59, 12 March 2009
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	[[User:Spike\|Spike]] 13:29, 6 March 2009 (CST)		[[User:Spike\|Spike]] 13:29, 6 March 2009 (CST)

			==Melee Aliens With Guns==

			As detailed [[Talk:Chryssalid#Reaction_firing_Chryssalids.3F.21\|here]], Chryssalids that end up with weapons can indeed reaction fire. I figure the same holds for Reapers, Silacoids and Zombies; the alien won't fire the gun normally but will if you provoke reaction fire. This is liable to be a nonissue with Silacoids and Zombies, due to their low TUs and sluggish reactions. The Reaper is a bit more of a threat, with higher reactions and more TUs. As predicted by Murphy, the one melee alien that can naturally(albeit by a glitch) end up holding a gun is also the most dangerous; Chryssalids have a rather long TU bar and a very high reaction stat(at least for the aliens), meaning they'll often get a chance to shoot at you if they have a gun. Of course, all of these aliens have a 0 for Firing Accuracy, so they're relying entirely on luck to hit you.

			On an alternate idea to explain why the Chryssalid never shoots, if it is indeed shown that melee aliens can shoot guns during the Alien Turn if they have them, is that perhaps the Chryssalid deems its melee weapon to be better. It's been shown elsewhere on the wiki that Chryssalids actually do weapon damage with their melee attack(which is ridiculously powerful) and the game zombifies any soldier killed by the attack. I can't find this research right now, though, so if someone does come across it, please remind me where it is! [[User:Arrow Quivershaft\|Arrow Quivershaft]] 17:59, 12 March 2009 (CDT)