Talk:Agents Stats (Apocalypse) - Revision history

Magic9mushroom: /* Hybrid agents are shorter? */

2020-06-21T14:22:13Z

Hybrid agents are shorter?

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:22, 21 June 2020
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	:::: Yeah, well that's why I said "slightly"; perhaps "marginally" would have been a better word. [[User:Darkpast\|Darkpast]] ([[User talk:Darkpast\|talk]]) 10:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)		:::: Yeah, well that's why I said "slightly"; perhaps "marginally" would have been a better word. [[User:Darkpast\|Darkpast]] ([[User talk:Darkpast\|talk]]) 10:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

			:::::My point was that actual Apocalypse accuracies are in fact affected by target size '''much''' more than those of UFO/TFTD. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 14:21, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Darkpast: /* Hybrid agents are shorter? */

2020-06-21T10:33:04Z

Hybrid agents are shorter?

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:33, 21 June 2020
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	:::Also, if the accuracy mechanics were the same as in the first two games it would ''not'' matter (very much) whether they were shorter, because of the hit/miss test (calculated "hit"s are effectively guaranteed to hit; calculated "miss"es are unlikely to hit except at close range). Apocalypse, however, does not have a hit/miss test; the inaccuracy number is directly fed into a spread (this is why Apocalypse never tells you exact accuracies). [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 07:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)		:::Also, if the accuracy mechanics were the same as in the first two games it would ''not'' matter (very much) whether they were shorter, because of the hit/miss test (calculated "hit"s are effectively guaranteed to hit; calculated "miss"es are unlikely to hit except at close range). Apocalypse, however, does not have a hit/miss test; the inaccuracy number is directly fed into a spread (this is why Apocalypse never tells you exact accuracies). [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 07:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

			:::: Yeah, well that's why I said "slightly"; perhaps "marginally" would have been a better word. [[User:Darkpast\|Darkpast]] ([[User talk:Darkpast\|talk]]) 10:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Magic9mushroom: /* Hybrid agents are shorter? */

2020-06-21T08:00:06Z

Hybrid agents are shorter?

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:00, 21 June 2020
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	:: Hm, interesting. Hybrids definitely use the "Alien Grey" values for their starting stats though. It's possible that both Hybrids and the Sectoid prisoners use the same stats. [[User:Darkpast\|Darkpast]] ([[User talk:Darkpast\|talk]]) 07:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)		:: Hm, interesting. Hybrids definitely use the "Alien Grey" values for their starting stats though. It's possible that both Hybrids and the Sectoid prisoners use the same stats. [[User:Darkpast\|Darkpast]] ([[User talk:Darkpast\|talk]]) 07:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

			:::Pretty sure there's some screwery going on where the variable stats of soldiers are initialised from Alien Grey but the actual unit (in other ways) is an X-COM Agent.

			:::Also, if the accuracy mechanics were the same as in the first two games it would ''not'' matter (very much) whether they were shorter, because of the hit/miss test (calculated "hit"s are effectively guaranteed to hit; calculated "miss"es are unlikely to hit except at close range). Apocalypse, however, does not have a hit/miss test; the inaccuracy number is directly fed into a spread (this is why Apocalypse never tells you exact accuracies). [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 07:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Darkpast: /* Hybrid agents are shorter? */

2020-06-21T07:06:08Z

Hybrid agents are shorter?

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:06, 21 June 2020
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	: All Soldiers are assigned the "X-COM Agent" Group, which is why Androids are not immune to Stun Gas for example, even though they should be, while their base stats are not overwritten by that group. However, even the "latest" Apoc'd Version 3.10b doesn't show everything there is to see. [[User:Bard\|Bard]] ([[User talk:Bard\|talk]]) 20:19, 20 June 2020 (UTC)		: All Soldiers are assigned the "X-COM Agent" Group, which is why Androids are not immune to Stun Gas for example, even though they should be, while their base stats are not overwritten by that group. However, even the "latest" Apoc'd Version 3.10b doesn't show everything there is to see. [[User:Bard\|Bard]] ([[User talk:Bard\|talk]]) 20:19, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

			:: Hm, interesting. Hybrids definitely use the "Alien Grey" values for their starting stats though. It's possible that both Hybrids and the Sectoid prisoners use the same stats. [[User:Darkpast\|Darkpast]] ([[User talk:Darkpast\|talk]]) 07:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Bard: /* Hybrid agents are shorter? */

2020-06-20T20:19:08Z

Hybrid agents are shorter?

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:19, 20 June 2020
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	An interesting fact I've dug up via Apoc'd is that Hybrids ("Alien Grey" in the files) seem to be shorter than Humans and Androids ("Size X" is 24 compared to 32). This might make them slightly harder to hit, if the accuracy mechanics are the same as in the first two games. [[User:Darkpast\|Darkpast]] ([[User talk:Darkpast\|talk]]) 19:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)		An interesting fact I've dug up via Apoc'd is that Hybrids ("Alien Grey" in the files) seem to be shorter than Humans and Androids ("Size X" is 24 compared to 32). This might make them slightly harder to hit, if the accuracy mechanics are the same as in the first two games. [[User:Darkpast\|Darkpast]] ([[User talk:Darkpast\|talk]]) 19:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

			: Alien Grey are the Sectoids you encounter in the Alien Dimension in the Food Chambers I think and not the Hybrids.

			: All Soldiers are assigned the "X-COM Agent" Group, which is why Androids are not immune to Stun Gas for example, even though they should be, while their base stats are not overwritten by that group. However, even the "latest" Apoc'd Version 3.10b doesn't show everything there is to see. [[User:Bard\|Bard]] ([[User talk:Bard\|talk]]) 20:19, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Darkpast: /* Hybrid agents are shorter? */ new section

2020-06-20T19:29:36Z

Hybrid agents are shorter?: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:29, 20 June 2020
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	: I'm not too sure about that, however, what you can observe in real time mode is how someone with low reactions takes a much longer time to raise his weapon and shoot than someone with high reactions.		: I'm not too sure about that, however, what you can observe in real time mode is how someone with low reactions takes a much longer time to raise his weapon and shoot than someone with high reactions.
	: As for how quickly they can spot aliens, that is also an issue of how DOSBox is set up. If it runs too slow, i.e. standard Steam/GoG settings, or if you have a bad custom DOSBox configuration, you can notice how it takes longer for the spotted alien message and indicators to appear. [[User:Bard\|Bard]] ([[User talk:Bard\|talk]]) 20:46, 17 April 2020 (UTC)		: As for how quickly they can spot aliens, that is also an issue of how DOSBox is set up. If it runs too slow, i.e. standard Steam/GoG settings, or if you have a bad custom DOSBox configuration, you can notice how it takes longer for the spotted alien message and indicators to appear. [[User:Bard\|Bard]] ([[User talk:Bard\|talk]]) 20:46, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

			== Hybrid agents are shorter? ==

			An interesting fact I've dug up via Apoc'd is that Hybrids ("Alien Grey" in the files) seem to be shorter than Humans and Androids ("Size X" is 24 compared to 32). This might make them slightly harder to hit, if the accuracy mechanics are the same as in the first two games. [[User:Darkpast\|Darkpast]] ([[User talk:Darkpast\|talk]]) 19:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Magic9mushroom: /* Accuracy */

2020-05-15T15:21:21Z

Accuracy

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:21, 15 May 2020
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	::Still not 100% certain about this, though. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 11:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)		::Still not 100% certain about this, though. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 11:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

			::Someone from OpenApoc has given me [https://pastebin.com/PuSSyziU this]. I'm not entirely sure what some of those things are, and I'm not 100% sure whether the value it spits out goes into a scatter spread or a hit/miss test, but this looks very much like the answer and I wanted to get it down. It's a root-sum-square of a lot of terms, and indeed most of the modifiers affect the "agent accuracy" term. Immediately jumping out is that inaccuracy cannot be reduced below (weapon inaccuracy/2) since that's one of the terms. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 15:20, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

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Magic9mushroom: /* Accuracy */

2020-05-15T11:41:11Z

Accuracy

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:41, 15 May 2020
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	::On reflection I'm not sure the formula I posted above is accurate, as the Laser Sniper Gun seems to have more inaccuracy in all modes than one would expect from that formula. One annoying thing about Apocalypse is that it doesn't give you an actual number on chance to hit, so it's hard to check cases. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 09:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)		::On reflection I'm not sure the formula I posted above is accurate, as the Laser Sniper Gun seems to have more inaccuracy in all modes than one would expect from that formula. One annoying thing about Apocalypse is that it doesn't give you an actual number on chance to hit, so it's hard to check cases. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 09:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

			::With respect to what you were talking about with a cap - I don't think it's a cap ''per se''. As accuracy gets higher, the difference between modes goes ''smoothly'' down to "negligible" at 96. I think there's addition going on of miss chances between a component from the weapon (which is not affected by accuracy or modifiers) and a second component which depends on accuracy and modifiers (not sure whether it also depends on the weapon, though it definitely doesn't depend on it linearly). High accuracy means the second component gets lower, which means modifiers matter less, until at 96 (where your "inaccuracy" is 4, only 5% of what it was at accuracy 20) the second component is negligible and you have basically the same (high) accuracy between prone/aimed and walking/auto/dual-wielding. You still, however, have the first component, based on the weapon. Or in maths:

			::Miss Chance = (100 - weapon accuracy) * scaling factor + (100 - soldier accuracy) * modifiers * scaling factor

			::Still not 100% certain about this, though. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 11:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

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Magic9mushroom: /* Accuracy */

2020-05-15T09:23:45Z

Accuracy

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:23, 15 May 2020
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	:There is also a hard max accuracy limit for each weapon. Similar to how Stun Damage only stuns up to X Health, and everything above requires you to damage the enemy to bring the Health below the threshold. One example would be the Toxi Gun compared to the Laser Sniper Rifle when having a soldier with max accuracy switch between the aim modes with each weapon. The Toxi Gun will hit its accuarcy limit at the Snap Shot mode already but at around what looks like 60% or 70% instead of 100%, while the Aimed Shot mode won't increase on the weapons accuracy. [[User:Bard\|Bard]] ([[User talk:Bard\|talk]]) 22:04, 14 May 2020 (UTC)		:There is also a hard max accuracy limit for each weapon. Similar to how Stun Damage only stuns up to X Health, and everything above requires you to damage the enemy to bring the Health below the threshold. One example would be the Toxi Gun compared to the Laser Sniper Rifle when having a soldier with max accuracy switch between the aim modes with each weapon. The Toxi Gun will hit its accuarcy limit at the Snap Shot mode already but at around what looks like 60% or 70% instead of 100%, while the Aimed Shot mode won't increase on the weapons accuracy. [[User:Bard\|Bard]] ([[User talk:Bard\|talk]]) 22:04, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

			::On reflection I'm not sure the formula I posted above is accurate, as the Laser Sniper Gun seems to have more inaccuracy in all modes than one would expect from that formula. One annoying thing about Apocalypse is that it doesn't give you an actual number on chance to hit, so it's hard to check cases. [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 09:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

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Bard: /* Accuracy */

2020-05-14T22:04:23Z

Accuracy

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:04, 14 May 2020
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	but I'm not sure what the scaling factor is or what all the modifiers are. I think Makus probably knows this? [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 14:58, 13 May 2020 (UTC)		but I'm not sure what the scaling factor is or what all the modifiers are. I think Makus probably knows this? [[User:Magic9mushroom\|Magic9mushroom]] ([[User talk:Magic9mushroom\|talk]]) 14:58, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

			:There is also a hard max accuracy limit for each weapon. Similar to how Stun Damage only stuns up to X Health, and everything above requires you to damage the enemy to bring the Health below the threshold. One example would be the Toxi Gun compared to the Laser Sniper Rifle when having a soldier with max accuracy switch between the aim modes with each weapon. The Toxi Gun will hit its accuarcy limit at the Snap Shot mode already but at around what looks like 60% or 70% instead of 100%, while the Aimed Shot mode won't increase on the weapons accuracy. [[User:Bard\|Bard]] ([[User talk:Bard\|talk]]) 22:04, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

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