UFOpaedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Kill Modelling

2011-03-20T21:41:43Z

Demon0n:

Does this take into account 2x2 units getting hit 4 times by explosions? Based on the reaper vs blaster bomb result, I'm guessing it doesn't. --[[User:MB|MB]] 11:33, 2 February 2007 (PST)

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Hi MB,

No, that's not included in the model per se; big aliens are treated as a single-square target with that alien's stats.

That said, they die when one quadrant dies, AFAIK. (A blast individually affects each of the four quadrants separately, and that as per the rules of explosions decreasing by each tile outward from GZ.) It's possible that by chance the other quadrants may take more damage than the GZ/targetted quadrant I modelled. Still, one expects the GZ/targetted quadrant to take the most blast damage '''on average''', since that's where the explosion is envisioned as coursing outward from. (Except for the "at edge" blasts... they should be seen as having only one quadrant of the four being hit, I guess.)

So the model is probably fairly accurate for 2x2 units, but may over-estimate a little (i.e., big units may die with a little less hitting than shown)... probability/statistics can get funny when "selection" occurs, which this is an instance of, because the critter dies as soon as any one quadrant dies (it selects for whichever quadrant actually got the most damage, never mind averages). It's an interesting question, really... if I ever re-do the model, I would try to include that.

Let me take this chance to say, I hope everyone keeps in mind that my kill modelling is oriented toward experience training, where you're deliberately trying to keep the target ''alive'' (as modelled by, hitting two sides' armor, whichever has ''more'' armor as of any given shot). In real battle, of course, many shots will be hitting only one armor facing. This doesn't apply to GZ explosions, since they only affect one facing (Under armor), but does apply to any modeling of blast damage farther than GZ+1.

I'll make a note on the page pointing others here, in case others have the same question. Thanks! - [[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 16:36, 2 February 2007 (PST)

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Hang on, I thought a 2x2 unit has only one set of stats; in particular, one HP value. So if a reaper gets hit by a blaster bomb, minimum damage is 100 at the centre + 90 everywhere else, for a total of 370. Under armour (4) reduces this, but not by much. Mr. Reaper should now have about -220 hit points and therefore be very dead.
In fact, I think even an alien grenade should kill a reaper every time. (45+3*40=165).

Well there's only one way to settle this... Next time I see a floater terror ship, I will let it land and go nuts with blaster bombs and grenades. In the interests of science, of course. --[[User:MB|MB]] 01:57, 3 February 2007 (PST)

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LOL. God forbid we should end the alien menace so harshly... next thing you know, they'll be giving us gifts to forget the whole Sydney Terrorist attack thing. You could crash the whole .exe!

I doubt a 2x2 has a "central damage stat". It would mean any explosive would kill them instantly. Pretty much.

You are always welcome to prove anyone wrong. There are a lot of theories here that anyone would love to have proved wrong with real data.

These pages are not hostile arguments... they are enjoyable parlor discussions of data showing how things actually are. Men in leather armchairs.

Ok, women too. In leather.

Anyway. Zombie has worked on this. Send him a note if you want a quick response. He's all over StrategyCore with the same handle. - [[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]]

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The Reaper quarters do share 1 set of stats. Each large unit takes up 4 unitpos.dat slots - one per quarter. Each quarter only reference a single reference in unitref.dat.

Don't forget that every attack is treated as a separate attack, and will therefore be subject to armour and the damage multiplier every time. So yes, Reapers do fall very easily to weak HE damage. But for the tougher nuts like the Sectopods, they compensate by having heavier armour to ward off each of the attacks.

- [[User:NKF|NKF]]

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Um, yeah. It's like what NKF said. 2x2 units are basically like 4 single units glued together. It has 4 sets of values in unitpos.dat to account for position on the battlescape, but only one set of "vitals" in unitref.dat.

Any explosive greater than 8 HE can damage beginner level Reapers, and 10 HE for Experienced-Superhuman (given enough shots of course). For a guaranteed kill we need to remember two numbers also: 150 (148 health + 2 under armor) for beginner level and 152 (148 health + 4 under armor). The HWP Rocket (85 HE listed, 42+[37*3]=153 damage) is just barely enough to do the trick for any Reaper. These numbers all assume a GZ explosion for one of the quarters.

For what it's worth, I just set up a testing scenario with 2 beginner level Reapers on a terror site a few days back. All I have to do now is fire up BB's logger, create a AHK script and run a few trials. Will let you know what I find out. --[[User:Zombie|Zombie]] 08:16, 3 February 2007 (PST)

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They only have one Unitref entry? Arg... that means my kill model is way off, for explosions - the will die a lot faster than I show. Let us know what you find, Z! - [[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 07:11, 4 February 2007 (PST)

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Haven't had much time to get a test going on 2x2 units, but will get to it sooner or later.

Anyhow, I wanted to respond to this:

"Although the sectopod would be great for target practice - being invulnerable to a SP or even laser pistol - it can't be disarmed. Same for the cyberdisc, another tough creature."

Technically, you are correct. The weapons cannot be removed in-game. They can't be removed via editing the executable either. However, you could edit the Sectopod's/Cyberdisc's weapon accuracy in the executable down to 0% for all the shot types (which I think removes the shot type from the weapon menu). Then make the weapon damage 0. Result is a perfectly harmless creature, well, except for the Cyberdisc which has that nasty auto-destruct feature. And of course, this is via modding which plays no role in kill modeling, but it may allow you to test the creatures out without fear of retribution. :)

I should also mention that the tables given in the article page are for Experienced-Superhuman skill levels only and do not apply to Beginner where armor values are 1/2 the core. Edit: nevermind, didn't read far enough down in the table. --[[User:Zombie|Zombie]] 09:06, 5 July 2007 (PDT)

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I've learned a lot of exceptions and technicalities over the months. Chiefly, I wish I had made a second table of kill modeling not focused on the "firing squad" scenario, but instead covering the "fighting for your life in the early game" situation. Damn, there have been a number of good games lately. They seem to come in rushes. --[[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 00:08, 6 July 2007 (PDT)

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It would be nice to mention that this model work only on beginner difficulty. For example: on superhuman difficulty level flying suit doesn't protect veterans or elite even from single hit of heavy plasma in frontal armor. Based on huge experience and brutal game testing.
-[[User:Demon0n|Demon0n]] 17:41, 20 March 2011 (EDT)
:Hi DemonOn,

:As shown in the spreadsheet on the Extended Model page, it takes a minimum of one hit and an average of 3.1 ± 2.2 hits to kill an elite soldier in Flying Armor with a heavy plasma. And you're right - this is a conservative estimate (i.e., one could die more quickly), because my "experience training" model assumed one was trying to hit at least two sides. I trust you're not implying that armor changes according to difficulty level; it doesn't... you won't die more quickly on the highest levels due to worse armor or better heavy plasmas, but because aliens shoot better and survive longer (see [[Alien Stats]]), and of course, they're not waiting for you to turn so they can hit you in two different sides. You're more than welcome to edit the big Author's Note I made... I doubt I will get around to working with this model again.

:When possible, sign your notes with <nowiki>-~~~~</nowiki> ... if authors don't do that, soon enough, nobody will know who said what, when.

:Save humanity from the alien threat! -[[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 23:07, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

:: Hi.

:: Looks like you are right. Never played others difficulty levels except the first walkthrough(beginner... It was long time ago...). Tested that today and it seems like there is some kind of "dice throw" model used "hit_no_penetration/hit_penetrated(injured + armor damage)/hit_critical(killed)" among other calculations. -[[User:Demon0n|Demon0n]] 17:41, 20 March 2011 (EDT)

::: Again, please sign your comments!

::: The formula for projectile [[Damage]] is simple enough; take the rated power of the weapon, double it, and choose a random number from 0 to that figure. Multiply the result by the relevant damage modifier percentage, subtract the unit's relevant armour stat, and you've got your final damage figure.

::: For example, the [[Heavy Plasma]] is rated at 115 damage. That means it'll roll from 0 to 230. A human takes 100% of the damage, so the result is not multiplied, but you still subtract the frontal armour value (110). That means the final damage dealt will be anywhere from 0 to 120, with a near 50% chance of no damage being dealt at all.

::: The most health any given unit can have is 60, so that's roughly a 25% chance of "instant" death (keeping in mind that fatal wounds have the potential to finish the job); assuming the unit has as much health as it can (full training + no previous damage that mission), is being hit from the front only once, etc... But assuming the shot has connected, there's only one real damage roll after that. -  [[User:Bomb_Bloke|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User_talk:Bomb_Bloke|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bomb_Bloke|Contribs]]) 18:35, 19 March 2011 (EDT)

:::: I was going to point to the [[Damage]] page for the specifics, but after reading it I've found it to be very confusing. Time to mark it for a rewrite! -[[User:NKF|NKF]] 18:39, 19 March 2011 (EDT)

Murphy's Laws (X-COM)

2011-03-20T20:23:03Z

Demon0n:

==[[Battlescape|Battlescape (UFO Defense)]]==
===[[Soldiers]]===
*If a soldier can miss, it will.
*If a soldier can panic, it will.
**If your soldier holds a primed [[Proximity Grenade]] and panics he'll drop it and start running
***If holding any other weapons he'll drop them and run right next to an alien
*If a soldier is armed, it will get MCed.
*When a member of your squad is mind controlled, his/her accuracy and reactions increase.
**The opposite is true when you mind control an alien
*The soldier with the most powerful weapon is surely the one with the worst morale / MC resistance.
*If a soldier can hit an alien, it won't
*If a soldier goes berserk, he/she will turn to face your nearest soldier and autofire
*If a soldier has a [[Rocket Launcher]], he will get MCed while still in the craft
*Your first unit out is always shot down
**Your first unit out is always your commander
*A wounded soldier will die before you find the last alien
*As soon as you get better armor, the aliens get better weapons
*[[Electroflare|Flares]] will land where they cannot be picked up
*If your base is attacked, you will always get flares instead of [[Heavy Plasma|Heavy Plasmas]]
*You will always end up short of 1 TU to perform the action you wanted to do
*If an alien grenade can explode and take out half or all of your squad, it will
*The soldiers with the worst stats will always be promoted
**When you build the [[Psi Lab]] you will always discover that your officers are psi weaklings
*On [[Ethereal]] [[Terror Mission]]s, you will always get the most [[Sectopod]]s as possible.
*If you can not remember, do not use Proximity/Particle Disturbance Grenades.
**All Five Second Grenades are Three Seconds
*If there is a civilian near the enemy you want to kill, your soldiers will always kill that civilian instead.

===[[Civilian|Civilians]]===
*If a civilian sees a fire he will run into it
*If a civilian sees an alien he'll move right next to it
*If a civilian can block your line of fire to an alien he will do that
*Civilians will always be attracted towards dropped primed proximity grenades
*Civilians block doorways if you run out of time units before you can reach them
*Civilians will always run towards the aliens

===[[Alien Life Forms|Aliens]]===
*If an alien can miss, it won't
*If an alien can MC you, it will
*Alien commanders will always kill themselves (with their [[Blaster Launcher|Blaster Launchers]]) to avoid capture
*If there are [[Chryssalid|Chryssalids]], you will get at least one zombified soldier
*You'll never want to know the answer to "why did the Chryssalid cross the road?"
*If a [[Reaper]] can get stuck, it will
*If a [[Cyberdisk]] can explode on one of your men, it will.
*Unconscious aliens capable of melee attacks wake up when you least expect them to
*If you opened a door and turned left, the aliens are all on the right
*[[Sectopod|Sectopods]] will always reaction fire to you
*Aliens are smarter than they look

==[[Geoscape|Geoscape (UFO Defense)]]==
*When you need money the most, some of your funders will stop funding you.
*As soon as you get a new base online, it will be attacked
*As soon as you get lots of money, the aliens will make you spend it all
*[[Alien Terror|Terror sites]] always appear only at night
*Seas always appear below a crashing UFO
*The first country to drop funding always gave the most money
*X-COM bases are always attacked when the squads are out
*Crashed UFO's never have [[Elerium]]
*Landed UFO's will take off before you can get to them
*UFO's will always arrive after your [[Skyranger]] is refueling from a two day patrol
*If you have forgotten to save the game for at least 3 missions, the game will crash
**The game will always crash when it is the least convenient
*If you launch a craft fully equipped for night fighting it will arrive at its intended location during daytime
*If you launch a craft fully equipped for day fighting it will arrive at its intended location during nighttime
*When a base becames operational UFO activity on that area will cease to zero immediately afterwards
*If your craft only has 1 missile left when it shoots it will miss
*[[Small Scout|Alien UFO scouts]] will always outrun your [[Interceptor|Interceptors]]

==[[Cityscape (Apocalypse)]]==
*If you're almost broke after buying a new flagship for your fleet, it will be destroyed in the next UFO incursion.
*The pride of your fleet is always stuck in alien dimension when you get attacked by a Mothership.
*UFOs carrying infiltrators always spawn at the gate you don't have covered.
*Griffon AFV is tough. The road under it is not. The tracks are just for show.
*There are only two types of vehicles that are always in abundance on the market. Blazer bikes and Stormdogs.
*While en route to a building, your craft will shoot at a Cult civilian car and demolish half of the city trying to hit it. However, the car will survive.
*Megapol is useless.
**Transtellar is annoying.
***Everyone else is both annoying and useless.
*Government's weekly paycheck,after paying the overhead, will buy you a Lawpistol clip. Maybe two.
*If your base is in a slum, a single stray shot from a light disruptor will destroy it all.
**If your base is in a warehouse, said stray shot will still hit the tile with your agents
*Hoverbike swarm is a good idea. Too bad they'll all get shot down anyway because of sheer dumb luck on the aliens' part.
*Research will always be completed right after when you needed it the most.
*After a firefight in the city, the only one to be blamed for the devastation will be you, even if it was an Overspawn that did it.
*The Overspawn will coincidentally be dropped right at your doorstep.
*The Overspawn will never, EVER get hurt from falling debris. Unless you drop the said debris and level half of the city with it.
*People Tubes can collapse from an angry glare or a single bullet.
*You're the only one who has a problem with the aliens. Every other corp has them on neutral.
*Subversion attacks WILL succeed, 100%.
*Your carefully built Dimension Probe will be welcomed by a volley of Heavy Disruptor Guns.At least it just needs to appear at the dimension just once to start the infiltration.
*Your very first invasion of the Alien Dimension will require an hour's savescumming to get it right without being reduced to scrap metal.
*You WILL forget to not to move the XCOM craft when you succeed in destroying an alien building, killing everyone in the process.

==[[Battlescape Overview (Apocalypse)|Battlescape (Apocalypse)]]==
*If your base is raided, there will be as few of your agents spawning as possible.
**Said agents will spawn as far away from the access lift as possible.
***Guess where the scientists will appear.
*If you're raiding a building, there will always be a retard with a heavy launcher.
**Despite your best efforts, he will manage to fire at least one missile.
***And he will do so even if you're breathing in his face.
****There is no way to avoid the missile and injuries or casualties from it.
*****Even if you somehow actually manage to avoid the missile, it'll bring down the building on you.
*That stupid grenade will go off at the cultist corpses and destroy all the goodies you came here for.
*If an agent in a squad gets attacked by a brainsucker, the rest of the squad won't hit it at point blank range.
**Or they'll fire a missile launcher. Guess the results.
*If you turn around the corner where you think that last alien is hiding, it'll turn out to be half a dozen of Anthropods. All armed to the teeth.
*Berserking agent will cause more chaos and destruction than all of your other agents put together. And it won't be directed at the enemy.
*If someone throws a Boomeroid at an agent, he'll try to run away from it.
**Because it will always turn out that you forgot to set him to aggressive mode.
*If you try to capture a Megaspawn, he'll die before you can stun it.
*You'd wish you gave that mind controlled agent a Toxigun instead of a Dimension Missile Launcher.
*You'll encounter cloaked and flying Skeletoids much more often than you'd like to.
*Good stuff always comes too late.
*Psi attacks are only successful when they're not necessary.
*Dynamic music always ignores what you're actually doing.
*That agent you sent to scout ahead will always be the one without a motion scanner.
*Every raid is a horrible decision between property damage and greed. Either way, you lose.
*The agent with a Mind Bender won't see the enemy until he's standing right next to it.

Talk:Kill Modelling

2011-03-19T13:53:30Z

Demon0n:

Does this take into account 2x2 units getting hit 4 times by explosions? Based on the reaper vs blaster bomb result, I'm guessing it doesn't. --[[User:MB|MB]] 11:33, 2 February 2007 (PST)

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Hi MB,

No, that's not included in the model per se; big aliens are treated as a single-square target with that alien's stats.

That said, they die when one quadrant dies, AFAIK. (A blast individually affects each of the four quadrants separately, and that as per the rules of explosions decreasing by each tile outward from GZ.) It's possible that by chance the other quadrants may take more damage than the GZ/targetted quadrant I modelled. Still, one expects the GZ/targetted quadrant to take the most blast damage '''on average''', since that's where the explosion is envisioned as coursing outward from. (Except for the "at edge" blasts... they should be seen as having only one quadrant of the four being hit, I guess.)

So the model is probably fairly accurate for 2x2 units, but may over-estimate a little (i.e., big units may die with a little less hitting than shown)... probability/statistics can get funny when "selection" occurs, which this is an instance of, because the critter dies as soon as any one quadrant dies (it selects for whichever quadrant actually got the most damage, never mind averages). It's an interesting question, really... if I ever re-do the model, I would try to include that.

Let me take this chance to say, I hope everyone keeps in mind that my kill modelling is oriented toward experience training, where you're deliberately trying to keep the target ''alive'' (as modelled by, hitting two sides' armor, whichever has ''more'' armor as of any given shot). In real battle, of course, many shots will be hitting only one armor facing. This doesn't apply to GZ explosions, since they only affect one facing (Under armor), but does apply to any modeling of blast damage farther than GZ+1.

I'll make a note on the page pointing others here, in case others have the same question. Thanks! - [[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 16:36, 2 February 2007 (PST)

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Hang on, I thought a 2x2 unit has only one set of stats; in particular, one HP value. So if a reaper gets hit by a blaster bomb, minimum damage is 100 at the centre + 90 everywhere else, for a total of 370. Under armour (4) reduces this, but not by much. Mr. Reaper should now have about -220 hit points and therefore be very dead.
In fact, I think even an alien grenade should kill a reaper every time. (45+3*40=165).

Well there's only one way to settle this... Next time I see a floater terror ship, I will let it land and go nuts with blaster bombs and grenades. In the interests of science, of course. --[[User:MB|MB]] 01:57, 3 February 2007 (PST)

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LOL. God forbid we should end the alien menace so harshly... next thing you know, they'll be giving us gifts to forget the whole Sydney Terrorist attack thing. You could crash the whole .exe!

I doubt a 2x2 has a "central damage stat". It would mean any explosive would kill them instantly. Pretty much.

You are always welcome to prove anyone wrong. There are a lot of theories here that anyone would love to have proved wrong with real data.

These pages are not hostile arguments... they are enjoyable parlor discussions of data showing how things actually are. Men in leather armchairs.

Ok, women too. In leather.

Anyway. Zombie has worked on this. Send him a note if you want a quick response. He's all over StrategyCore with the same handle. - [[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]]

----

The Reaper quarters do share 1 set of stats. Each large unit takes up 4 unitpos.dat slots - one per quarter. Each quarter only reference a single reference in unitref.dat.

Don't forget that every attack is treated as a separate attack, and will therefore be subject to armour and the damage multiplier every time. So yes, Reapers do fall very easily to weak HE damage. But for the tougher nuts like the Sectopods, they compensate by having heavier armour to ward off each of the attacks.

- [[User:NKF|NKF]]

----
Um, yeah. It's like what NKF said. 2x2 units are basically like 4 single units glued together. It has 4 sets of values in unitpos.dat to account for position on the battlescape, but only one set of "vitals" in unitref.dat.

Any explosive greater than 8 HE can damage beginner level Reapers, and 10 HE for Experienced-Superhuman (given enough shots of course). For a guaranteed kill we need to remember two numbers also: 150 (148 health + 2 under armor) for beginner level and 152 (148 health + 4 under armor). The HWP Rocket (85 HE listed, 42+[37*3]=153 damage) is just barely enough to do the trick for any Reaper. These numbers all assume a GZ explosion for one of the quarters.

For what it's worth, I just set up a testing scenario with 2 beginner level Reapers on a terror site a few days back. All I have to do now is fire up BB's logger, create a AHK script and run a few trials. Will let you know what I find out. --[[User:Zombie|Zombie]] 08:16, 3 February 2007 (PST)

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They only have one Unitref entry? Arg... that means my kill model is way off, for explosions - the will die a lot faster than I show. Let us know what you find, Z! - [[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 07:11, 4 February 2007 (PST)

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Haven't had much time to get a test going on 2x2 units, but will get to it sooner or later.

Anyhow, I wanted to respond to this:

"Although the sectopod would be great for target practice - being invulnerable to a SP or even laser pistol - it can't be disarmed. Same for the cyberdisc, another tough creature."

Technically, you are correct. The weapons cannot be removed in-game. They can't be removed via editing the executable either. However, you could edit the Sectopod's/Cyberdisc's weapon accuracy in the executable down to 0% for all the shot types (which I think removes the shot type from the weapon menu). Then make the weapon damage 0. Result is a perfectly harmless creature, well, except for the Cyberdisc which has that nasty auto-destruct feature. And of course, this is via modding which plays no role in kill modeling, but it may allow you to test the creatures out without fear of retribution. :)

I should also mention that the tables given in the article page are for Experienced-Superhuman skill levels only and do not apply to Beginner where armor values are 1/2 the core. Edit: nevermind, didn't read far enough down in the table. --[[User:Zombie|Zombie]] 09:06, 5 July 2007 (PDT)

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I've learned a lot of exceptions and technicalities over the months. Chiefly, I wish I had made a second table of kill modeling not focused on the "firing squad" scenario, but instead covering the "fighting for your life in the early game" situation. Damn, there have been a number of good games lately. They seem to come in rushes. --[[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 00:08, 6 July 2007 (PDT)

----

It would be nice to mention that this model work only on beginner difficulty. For example: on superhuman difficulty level flying suit doesn't protect veterans or elite even from single hit of heavy plasma in frontal armor. Based on huge experience and brutal game testing.
-DemonOn March 18, 2011

:Hi DemonOn,

:As shown in the spreadsheet on the Extended Model page, it takes a minimum of one hit and an average of 3.1 ± 2.2 hits to kill an elite soldier in Flying Armor with a heavy plasma. And you're right - this is a conservative estimate (i.e., one could die more quickly), because my "experience training" model assumed one was trying to hit at least two sides. I trust you're not implying that armor changes according to difficulty level; it doesn't... you won't die more quickly on the highest levels due to worse armor or better heavy plasmas, but because aliens shoot better and survive longer (see [[Alien Stats]]), and of course, they're not waiting for you to turn so they can hit you in two different sides. You're more than welcome to edit the big Author's Note I made... I doubt I will get around to working with this model again.

:When possible, sign your notes with <nowiki>-~~~~</nowiki> ... if authors don't do that, soon enough, nobody will know who said what, when.

:Save humanity from the alien threat! -[[User:MikeTheRed|MikeTheRed]] 23:07, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

:: Hi.

:: Looks like you are right. Never played others difficulty levels except the first walkthrough(beginner... It was long time ago...). Tested that today and it seems like there is some kind of "dice throw" model used "hit_no_penetration/hit_penetrated(injured + armor damage)/hit_critical(killed)" among other calculations.

Talk:Kill Modelling

2011-03-19T01:06:34Z

Demon0n: